Cloudflare’s New CMO Jeff Samuels: Why Brand Wins, Marketers as Context Engineers

Product empathy, technical empathy, understanding technology, it's really, really important. And I think a marketer who has that, whatever their marketing is, is, is pretty, is pretty amazing. The good one. Biggest mistake tech companies make in positioning? Yeah, I think it's, it's focusing on the how instead of the what or the, or the why, you know, the so what or the why, you know, it's like, it's, I think it's really important, like the Simon Sinek, like understand the why element that I believe in. And I think that's a big mistake. You're focusing on what's in front of you and describing a capability instead of describing the outcome. Hello, everyone, and welcome to This Week in NET. It's the March the 20th, 2026 edition. And this week, we're going to talk about marketing from a technology perspective. For that, we have Cloudflare's new Chief Marketing Officer, Jeff Samuels. So it won't be as technical as usual, but definitely be interesting because it's all about how a technology company should see marketing. So it's a fresh perspective, really. I'm your host, João Tomé, based in Lisbon, Portugal, as usual. Before we go into the actual episode, two notes. One is we've been starting to publish this week some women at Cloudflare stories. We started with Sofia Carditas. She's based in Lisbon here. She's an engineer, but she actually started as a clinical psychologist. So a very interesting story. We published this as an individual episode. More stories to come, so stay tuned for those. And before the episode, second note, let's do a run through to the news. This one is a bit more general, but important for the AI infrastructure perspective. NVIDIA pushed harder into the AI agents and inference story at their event, GTC. So new things appearing in terms of competing there, quite interesting as well. And of course, in terms of the Cloudflare stories, Cloudflare introduced custom regions for precision data control. So we're expanding regional services with new predefined regions and the launch of custom regions. So customers can now define precise geographical boundaries for data processing. So it's tailored to meet their compliance and performance needs. Another one, in this case, more related to policy. So this is a blog post that was written on Monday about standing up for the open Internet. So why did we appeal Italy's privacy chill fine? So Cloudflare is appealing a 14 million euro fine from Italian regulators over piracy shield, a system that forces providers to block content without oversight. So Cloudflare is challenging this framework to protect the Internet from overblocking and lack of due process. Another blog of the week is announcing Cloudflare account abuse protection. So this is to prevent fraudulent attacks from bots and humans. So blocking bots isn't enough anymore. Cloudflare's new fraud protection capabilities is now available in early access. So it helps you stop account abuse before it starts. So also a cool blog for you to read about. And now without further ado, here's my conversation with Cloudflare's CMO, Jeff Samuels. Hello, Jeff. How are you? Hey, how are you doing? It's so good to be here and with your audience. I'm really looking forward to this. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for being here. And let's start. Where are you based for those who don't know? So I'm based in the San Francisco Bay Area, like just outside San Francisco, the city about 30 minutes from San Francisco headquarters in San Francisco. And you're with Cloudflare since three months now, right? Yeah, I'm just hitting my three month anniversary or so. So it's exciting. So I think we can get a lot from you in different perspectives, one of which is to get to know you specifically. And for that, I think it's relevant. You have an amazing experience and background. So can you run us through on where did you grow up, your background, really? Yeah, yeah. You know, so I mean, I was born and raised in the New York City, New York area, right outside of New York and then in the suburb of New York and then went to college in New York City and lived in New York City for a little while. And again, that being early in my career there, I think helped shape sort of like, you know, elements of how I work and how I work with other people and the like. It was a really great experience. I also went overseas for a couple of years. I worked in the countries of Estonia. I worked in the country of Georgia, Tbilisi, Georgia. I worked in Israel for a bit, really, you know, shaping the way I work in terms of working in other cultures and with other professionals. And again, just amazing to experience the world outside of, you know, again, I didn't move much from where I grew up from the very beginning. So it was a really awesome early part of my life. Actually, those are countries, especially Estonia and Israel, very much so digital and very much so into tech, for sure. I'm not sure if you had a tech experience in those countries. Yeah, you know, so it was mostly again, again, this was now, you know, a couple of decades ago, but really working on the policy side of things, you know, which has also set the stage for, you know, solving problems at the business level as well. But like working with and for NGOs or for actually government organizations to actually try to impact, you know, the policy that was going on there. So it was like a great experience. And some of it was setting the stage for so much of the digital revolutions that happened, you know, early on in, especially in Estonia and how, you know, American and European partnerships happen with the country. So it was really exciting. In the show, we have many folks from our policy side, legal side, and that's really important, that relationship between policy, regulation, tech, technology, always really important. Can you explain to us how did you start being interested in marketing, being driven by that perspective? Yeah, so I started working at startups, like, so once I came back from the international pursuits, I started working at startups. And so much of it was about just moving the ball forward. Like, you know, again, when you're at a 20 person startup, like functional responsibility is very blurred. And I thought, I think, especially at an early age, and early part of my career, it gave me the opportunity to see everything. And I was drawn to so much about what the function of marketing does. And actually, really, the product side as well. You know, again, product marketing is a big part of the marketing function of companies. It's foundational. But like, when I started in my career, there was no product marketing, there was product and product management, and then there was marketing. And I was really drawn to the product side of the house early on. But, you know, if we were looking at through the modern lens, it was probably the product marketing sides, like thinking about the customer, the market, you know, how you position technology the right way to make sure an outcome happens. And, you know, it was like, really, that foundation of putting customers at the center of everything, and really trying to be the guide to the customer for what they need, and what they know, what they don't know. So it was just a great experience being at that, being in that part of my career and trying to do that, which was, which was really set me off on being sort of a marketing first practitioner, and then ultimately a marketing first leader. And in those startups that you mentioned, there's a lot of perspective, even on the Internet side as well, right? Can you give us a run through of those companies and what you learn in some of those? Yeah, you know, so I mean, like, and it's so relevant to Cloudflare in so many ways, because if you think about the product lines, and what, what Cloudflare is amazing at, I actually experiencing them at different individual companies. I mean, Cloudflare is pretty amazing, because it brings it all together on, you know, the one of the largest global networks in the world and, and provides that sort of operational excellence. You know, I guess I'll start sort of like, from from what I when I learned it when I was at OpenDNS, which was also a large mission critical network. But, you know, I think the lessons that OpenDNS was that community and customer community is the ultimate differentiating moat, you know, when you, when you win the hearts and minds of the people, especially managing a network, or the practitioners with the hands on keyboards, you know, ultimately, when the enterprise in every segment, and it's like making sure that the product and actually how the product connects and the practitioner feels and OpenDNS did that really, really well. And it allowed us to actually expand in, you know, different verticals and different industries and ultimately moving up market. You know, and then from OpenDNS, I went to Cisco, and I was, I was head of marketing for their cyber practice for the security. So like, you know, and it was through the acquisition of OpenDNS, I went from really relatively small, smaller company, you know, a few 100 people to a company that has 100,000 people. I think overall, and it was a great experience at Cisco. I think Cisco taught me like, I'm very much I try to be a growth mindset champion as much as possible. And I learned a lot at Cisco. And I think Cisco taught me how to operationalize complexity in a material way. And also that like, true scale requires a repeatable system led approach to the market. And that scale is what I've been having gone from now from, from Cisco to a startup. And it's, it translates, you know, all of these experiences at different size companies, and even marketing and building different kinds of products translates to different, to different. I'm curious on the small scale OpenDNS important in terms of DNS and even a precursor to Zero Trust, I believe, but then going to a very corporate large company, what are the main takeaways lessons you took from the small scale, and you took forward to the larger scale, but also that the small scale doesn't have and the large scale needs? What were those? I think Cisco and a lot of larger companies value sort of the grind in a sense of working at a startup and making sure you're driving towards specific goals. I think alignment at small, at startups, at any sort of small organization is so clear. And I think I was able to take that into a much larger organization and bring that focus on alignment in the right way. And again, the hustle and the grind of a startup, which is really, really important is again, beneficial to all size companies, but the combination of those two things, sort of like the, the, the, the ability to focus on what you want to achieve. At a smaller company, it's easier. Most of the time it's survival, right? You're trying to survive. Listen, it's easy to get alignment when you're focusing there. How do you bring that level of alignment at, you know, a company of a hundred thousand people, or like even this, the security group was like probably about, you know, almost 10,000 people. How do you get that focus on outcome? And I was able to do that and help a great team at Cisco do that. And I think, you know, again, I think we all benefited from that. What's the main thing about thinking of marketing from the technology company side that most people don't realize, but they should. Is there a distinction in terms of marketing, working at a tech company, may that be a startup or even a big one with the other marketing perspectives or not? Not that much. You know, I think it's, it is different, but there's things that I think it, it all comes down to being able to empathize with your audience, right? No matter what you are selling, marketing, positioning, you know, trying to convince if you, you can empathize with your, with your audience with hopefully with an individual, you can start thinking about what you need to build from a product perspective, from a market perspective, from a messaging perspective, from a, from an orchestration perspective. So when you, when you go into technology and I think it's really important that all marketers, especially really understand the technology, really understand, you know, how it's being used, how it was built and how ultimately a customer or a practitioner is going to use it to get the specific outcome. And I think that's like, again, that technical empathy too, to understand, you know, where things can go well, where things can be optimized, can allow for, you know, better planning, better orchestration, and ultimately better delivery of what, of what a company is trying to do. Makes sense. In terms of process, what came next for you were, was several years at Iterable. What can you say about that experience? Yeah. You know, so Iterable is a customer engagement platform. So I moved from, from cyber and infrastructure and cloud and mission critical infrastructure to selling, selling and marketing and building an application that marketers were using. And I had the opportunity to work with, you know, a thousand, more than a thousand brands and some of the most iconic companies in the world. And I really learned the power of life cycle empathy. You know, I learned that the, and it's sort of like the question you just sort of asked that the best marketing doesn't feel like you're being marketing or sold to. It's more like you're, and the outcome that you're trying to get to is, is like a perfectly timed solution to whatever that user's paying. And like our customers at Iterable, like span the world from, from Priceline to Major League Baseball to Coinbase. You know, it was, it was like really very agnostic on, on who we were, we were working with. But again, it all goes back to the question of like, you know, what, what marketing does, it's all about connection. And I was able to really learn that by obviously building the product at Iterable and making sure that it worked in these environments, but also seeing just incredible marketers do their job and, and evolve, especially through some pretty different times. You know, we was through COVID, you know, through the digital, you know, digital explosion then, and then more recently on, and how, you know, the market was changing. So really great experience, but, but, you know, each stop, you know, reinforced like a single truth that technology will change, but the need for, for, you know, trusted, clear connection with customers always is constant. That's my personal, you know, true. True. We're all humans and humans are at the helm and decisions so far, even using AI to help for sure. We're all humans and marketing also is driven by that perspective as well. Of course. What made you join Cloufler? Can you explain to us the process there and why Cloufler? Yeah. So, you know, I'd say there's like three, three main reasons, you know, and it all starts with the people. And again, whenever anyone's looking, you know, looking for a new stop on their journey, you know, you, you obviously engage with the people. And I think that's the most important thing. It's like, I think it's a, it's, it's not a cliche to say it's all about the people. It has to be. And I think during the interview process, I think we're all thinking about that. And, and, you know, I just got to know so many Clouflerians during the process, you know, I got to go to connect, you know, the global global conference in Vegas last October and just met not only Clouflerians, but, but also so many customers too. And like, you know, the people, the people are, are, are very special. And in terms of where we're trying to take, you know, just an amazing mission. And that goes to the second one, the mission of, of Cloufler is special. And I was drawn to that purpose. And it's, it's not something, it's been continuous that, that Matthew and Michelle have put forth from the beginning of them founding this company and, and it's unwavering. And I was really drawn to that. I mean, working with purpose is really important and making sure that we're aligning all of the things that we do functionally to that is, is, is just inspiring. And I was looking for that. And I always have been, you know, like in, in all the stops in my career, but this one is very special. And the last one after the people in the mission, you know, you have like the, the opportunity, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, I think for everyone who's been here for a long time, this is already a once in a generation company in so many ways. But I really believe that, you know, we're on the path and it's not, it's not necessarily ours to, to lose. It's ours to win, to be this iconic company. And, and I think that's that opportunity and that, that mission is something that I was drawn to. And like, again, I want to drive towards that outcome. So very inspired by that. In what way joining Cloufler now after three months, you see like the priorities, the things you, the perspectives you bring to Cloufler in terms of priorities, what are those really? You know, it's a good question. In a company like Cloufler, marketing must act as the architect. You know, that's, that's the outcome. Like it's like, again, I'm very much focused on where do we want to go so we can build strategies and measure accordingly. So, you know, it's marketing we want, I think it's important at any tech company, but especially Cloufler that we're the fulcrum of the architect of, of the go-to-market, you know, we need to translate the, this engineering brilliance into a narrative that the market can, can digest and ultimately activate on. And then, and then orchestrate and execute the journeys across all the audience audiences, again, to achieve those specific aligned outcomes. Right. So this is sort of like how, even when you were asking me about my other, my other experiences, these are very similar, you know, like of what you're trying to do, like, but our charter is distinct, but we share so much with other teams of Cloufler in terms of like measurement, like sales, like again, making sure that we achieve our, our customer and revenue objectives is extremely important. And from a product perspective, like we are, we are building campaigns. We're building activation that, that needs to fulfill outcomes as well. So, you know, though, that's really important. I think from a positioning perspective, our job marketing is to, is to bridge the gap, I think, between the how of what the code ultimately does and, and the why of the business outcome. You know, I think, and that goes back to like being that architect of the story. So. And Cloufler is very well known for being a technical company, even how it, how it communicates. The blog, really technical, the story, lava lamp, wall entropy coming from the research team, actually. Also curious on your perspective, because there's also this, this way of a long-term narrative, even employee branding, that's also important to hire and to bring awareness of the brand. How do you see those two alignments, brand demand that balance? Yeah. I think, I mean, like, again, I think those are the, the, the, the, you know, the right hand, the left hand in so many ways, I think brand creates the momentum brand is the tailwind and demand provides the motion or the execution arm. They're hand in hand, like, again, even if you look like, you know, for those listening who are more on the, the, you know, analytical side, it's sort of like, when you look at conversion rates, you know, brand ultimately can, can improve those if it's done the right way in terms of the awareness. Because, you know, having a, having a high performing pipeline without a narrative that people believe in just, there'll be, there'll be a ceiling to that. I think brand lowers the cost of every lead we generate because it builds this like unfair advantage of being that default choice. Even before a search begins, ultimately buyers, no matter what you're buying, you know, again, on the personal side or professional side, you're, you're going to go seek out information, references, and, and a big part of, of marketing that's been for, for, for a while now is making sure you're in those moments. So I think it's, they really go hand in hand and, and, and symbiotic in so many ways. As, as, as for employee branding, you know, I think it's, it's, it's more relevant than ever, you know, in 2026. We're in an AI saturated world, you know, and, and top talent doesn't necessarily want to work for a point solution. And this is where Cloudflare has this unfair advantage of being a major player across the Internet policy. And obviously this AI transformation that's happening in every single company. And so I think, again, just speaking for myself, after a few months, this is going to be a place where people want to be. And we've got to make sure that we market it again to that audience just as effectively as we do to a practitioner. That makes sense. Makes total sense. In what way can we also understand a bit of the things that are coming specifically, for example, we have RSA, the big conference about cybersecurity in San Francisco coming up and Cloudflare usually is there. What way these real world tools make sense these days still and are important? Yeah. You know, there's also the Connect, you spoke about Connect, our big event that we had the main one last year in Vegas. And this year it will be in San Francisco later the year. So events are still ongoing, right? Important. A hundred percent. I mean, a hundred percent. And I think there's an element of understanding an event, the before, the during, and after an event. And I think digital and the physical world comes together in a really brilliant world. But I would say increasingly as we're dominated by AI agents and AI marketing and digital noise, the right kind of events can become such a high bandwidth signal of trust. And that's really important, but it doesn't happen by accident. It has to be very, very intentional. And what you mentioned, like RSA, I'm really excited to be there in San Francisco in a week or so. And it's really important to highlight and focus on our customers that are going to be there. And again, the events that we have, we obviously are going to make sure that we're meeting our audiences where they are, even at an event like RSA. And again, highlighting so much of what we're doing with Cloudflare One and how we're bringing to market our SaaSy services. So it's really exciting. But yes, going back to your question, making sure the experience at these events are in line with how we're engaging digitally is really important. It's sort of that continuous motion. But again, going back to Connect 2, just a great opportunity to bring our users, our customers, our analysts, partners together. It's just a very special time and one that we have to do a lot of planning for to make sure that the experience matches the outcomes that we want. It's interesting. And I've been around for years and it's always interesting to see how the teams actually build not only the stand, a big stand, a very beautiful stand, but also the experiences in terms of agenda, in terms of panels, in terms of get-togethers with analysts, get-togethers with partners, the discussion flowing. And because it's San Francisco, because it's a big conference, RSA is going on, very relevant people in the cybersecurity realm are around and customers. So it's actually people are gathering already and you creating agenda, you creating the things that people value is also important. It's always amazing to see an RSA event for that purpose as well. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. It's like you're saying, it's a rare opportunity where you have all of these important part of our community together in one place and they want to learn, right? They're coming there for a reason. They're coming there to, sometimes it's very specific, I need to buy this kind of service. Sometimes it's, I want to learn, I want to educate, I want to get certified, all of these things. And when we unpack our Cloudflare agenda, we are trying to meet the audience where they are, how they want to be, and also making sure that we're meeting the different segments of that audience the right way. So that's well said. And that's what makes me really excited about these kinds of events, because it's such a concentrated few days of being able to bring the Cloudflare narrative in the right way to the right people. Makes perfect sense. Another thing regarding these types of events is what are the metrics you usually are more engaged with, more interesting in a marketing perspective? From events or overall? From events, from events in general. But overall as well, that's also interesting. So there's an element of an event that is a specific marketing program, right? So you're really looking at, first of all, you start out with hopefully a broken record in this regard. What do you want to achieve? It's sort of like when you're talking about your own conference, your own user conference, how many registrations do you want? Not just any registrations, the right audience. What's the mix of partner, prospect, and customer there? And so you really put out there what you want to think from an analyst or a PR perspective. How much do you want to be in those discussions? And we, again, for Cloudflare and RSA, we have all of the above for these things. And then obviously it's like you want to make sure there's a return on the investment because it's not only the dollars to do the sponsorships, but it's the opportunity cost. We are focused here for the right reason because our audience and our audiences are here and we want to make sure that we are making impact. So there's different ways we measure that in terms of, obviously, are people coming to what we're doing? We actually do the qualitative, like when we do a session, we ask, again, a survey on those sort of things, which are really important, especially when you start seeing over time how we're doing. But ultimately, you want to see that the outcome that we have is that they're appreciating what Cloudflare does, which is really important, customer or not, but also that they're starting to use our services. So there's proof of concepts, there's actually customers in the pipeline. And again, during RSA, hopefully new customers will become part of the Cloudflare family. And all these things are measured in very specific and quantitative ways, which gets me really excited when you can see that purity of outcome so you can do better for the next event. Because again, we have a Connect event in London in April, which I'm really excited to be out in London and see the Cloudflare out there. But similarly, it's a continuity of the journey we're bringing our customers on. So it makes sense. Another perspective here specifically is, and this wouldn't be a tech company if we didn't talk about AI. In what way is tech marketing also heading in the AI in agents era? Do you have ways where the team is already using some tools that you want to share? Yeah, absolutely. I think we're embracing it from a tech perspective in the way we're building our own technology to address some of the things that I mentioned here as well. But overall, we're entering a moment where marketing, it's a major shift. Even just before getting into actually the tools, which are a part of it. But tools are a strategy, using the right tools to the outcome that we want to get to. And so I think we're entering a moment where marketing is shifting from communications to orchestration. And that's been going on even before the recent couple of years of intensity. Because for the past 20 years, marketing has been about creating messaging, distributing them across channels, measuring, measuring, measuring. And the whole data-driven culture that started probably 20 years ago has made the way to the AI world we are right now. But AI is changing that fundamentally as agents begin to participate in discovery research, and even purchasing. And the audience is no longer just humans. All of these things change the way we as marketers need to act. And we're evolving. We're evolving from the way we create content. And I think we're becoming... Context is a very much important part of marketing and messaging and being human, actually. Understanding context is even more important. And there's a lot I think about in terms of marketers becoming context engineers. And there's been some great work written about this, which I really, really admire. But the job is no longer simply producing campaigns, which is still part of it. There's no doubt. But it's about structuring information. It's looking at signals and data that are both people and AI systems, and both of them so they can understand what Cloudflare does in that. And so I think marketing needs to be, and will be, more systemic in real time. And I think this is where it is. That's where the outcome we want. And the AI tools play a role in that. The way we're going to be organized plays a role in that. And ultimately, the way we measure does that as well. Overall, it's going to help us personalize more. That personalization has been, I think, overused for the past many, many, many years. But we're in a place right now where we really can get there. And I think it's partly about using the right tools, having the right people, training. And again, everyone, all of us, have got to break through the inertia of the last 10 years and making sure that we're learning. And I think that's the opportunity for all of us. And I think ultimately, this will make marketers more strategic. I think when you can hand off some of the important execution work that we talked about in this conversation, human work becomes more insight, narrative, judgment, understanding the market shifts. Things that marketers are doing already, but it allows us to focus on that. And I think that's what makes this era very exciting, but very transformative. True. And the level of things we need to learn now is amazing. I'm learning every week with new tools, new possibilities. It's quite amazing to see. And in the show, we've had some of our experts talking about security, using AI and agents. And we actually have our own set of tools that help us use the tools and be protected. May that be Zero Trust, the firewall for AI, things like that. So in a sense, it's actually cool to be at Qualflare and exploring some of these tools because we have the protections in place. But things are evolving at such a fast pace that it's definitely a learning curve constantly, in a sense. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's interesting. We're building tools with our engineering team. Saying it on a daily basis is not exaggerating of how we're talking about, how we're thinking about, how we're engaging and how to improve those things. And again, it's just going to be more tools for us to achieve the outcomes that we want, which is really exciting. And everything, the simplest things, obviously, the whole content and messaging, that has been going on for a while now. But just the ability to streamline so much of the process work that marketers have to do, I think it's pretty exciting. And yeah, we're doing it at Qualflare with Qualflare, which is very special. Absolutely. What to expect from the marketing front from Qualflare in the next year or so? What are the things, if we can give some highlights there? Yeah, I think it's all going to be about establishing Cloudflare as this essential platform for our customers in the AI transformation. The AI transformation that we were just talking about within marketing that we're leveraging Cloudflare for. I think it's marketing's role, responsibility, along with the larger team at Cloudflare to make sure that customers, partners view us and leverage us as this essential platform for transformation. It's not just a moment, it's this new era. And it demands us to be making sure our audiences know and experience that from Cloudflare. So I think that's really important. And part of that is making sure the architectural shift is visible. Again, and part of that, you're going to start seeing that as we show up, both digitally in the way we engage, but also the events that we talked about and building that. And I think it's a lot about building a foundation of trust. I mean, I think that's one of the big core, what I see is the brand components of Cloudflare. And I think that's really, really important now when everyone's going through this transformation and they're looking for partners. And increasingly they're seeking us out because of our network, because of the different kinds of capabilities that we provide all in one place. And they want us to be their partner in transformation. Partners want us to be their partners in transformation. And I think it's really important that from a marketing perspective, we are putting this out there as this is where we want to be and building our strategies accordingly. I think, going back to what you asked about brand and demand, it's taking that and making that the force that creates the tailwind for everything. And then ultimately, whether it's a PLG motion with our workers platform or larger deals in enterprise segments, it's like the demand can drive the execution. So it's pretty exciting. Interesting times for sure. I have a five round of shorter questions. Why not start? Most underrated marketing skill? Product empathy. I think going back to what I said before, it's so important. Product empathy, technical empathy, understanding the technology, it's really, really important. And I think a marketer who has that, whatever their marketing is, is pretty amazing. It's a good one. Biggest mistake tech companies make in positioning? Yeah, I think it's focusing on the how instead of the what or the why, the so what or the why. I think it's really important, like the Simon Sinek, like understand the why element I believe in. And I think that's a big mistake. You're focusing on what's in front of you and describing a capability instead of describing the outcome. Again, it's all about driving that why. I think that's how you're going to get brand love, which we all want. Another brand or performance, if you had to pick one? Yeah, I would say, and I think it's in line with some of the questions you've asked, I think it's got to be brand, because that's going to be the foundation to make performance better. Brand ultimately creates the demand. I think Cloudflare was born that way. It's like create a big product, amazing brand, and had millions of customers come to us. I think that's definitely the answer, brand. One trend in marketing you're skeptical about? You know, and I'm trying to think about it, even in this conversation now, I think it's like, there's an element of the, I think we're going to get there, but it's this hyper -personalized. Like I said, how personalization is an attribute of AI, but I think we've got to be thoughtful about how you get there, because ultimately, the only way you get that level of personalization is having the data, which most companies don't have, and then leveraging it and orchestrating it the right, which is in a process, and then being able to iterate on it going forward. And so, I'm skeptical of a lot. I want to verify, verify, verify, but I think that's an element that, again, it's been going on for a long time. I think AI is going to make it go faster, but we've got to be really, really thoughtful. And advice for young marketers entering tech? Yeah. I mean, that advice has changed, I think, in this AI world. I think it's twofold. I think one is going back to the product empathy. It's learn the technology, learn what the customer wants, drive that. But I think it's also become extremely fluent in all tools, especially on the AI side, like experiment, build your own application to actually accomplish what you might buy a tool for. It's not to say there's a lot of great martech out there, but build it yourself, try it. And especially if you're early in your career and you're trying to learn how to do something, try to build it. Because if you do that, you're just going to have such an advantage in any context that you're in. It's sort of like going back to what I said in the beginning. It's like working at a startup is like that, you're building. So, now everyone gets to be, again, a startup CEO and using some of this technology, a team of 10 or 20 people doing a lot of different things. Leverage that, lean into it. And if you don't know, ask someone. I think that's another thing. Raise your hand and ask someone. There's so many people that want to help. That's a very Cloutherian thing, like people helping out and even engineers explaining you what things mean. And that's really interesting. Last but not least, maybe you already spoke about this a bit, but one word to describe Clouther's opportunity right now? Yeah, I mean, it's generational. I think that's the opportunity. And I think when I talk to so many people who have been here for a few months like me or people that have been here for 14 or 15 years, I think people feel that. And I think that's something that's very special here. It's generational. That's a good way to end. Thank you so much, Jeff. This was great. Thank you. And thank you for asking these great questions and again, teaching me along the way. So I appreciate you. Thank you. And that's a wrap.