🇨🇦 Yes We Can

All right. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Yes We Can. I am just so excited to be here with Katherine Regnier. Welcome, Katherine. Thanks so much for joining us on your Friday morning. Oh, thanks, Michelle. I hope this ends up being the best hour of people's day. Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, I shared with you right before we went on air, but I'll say this for the audience who are tuning in. We started Cloudflare TV and Yes We Can during the pandemic just to connect with people. And I started to find a reason to connect with wonderful women in technology for 30 minutes every week. And it's been totally the highlight of my week. So it will definitely be the best part of my day. So thanks for sharing it with me. Yeah. Awesome. Well, look, let's start. You know, our audience is global. They're from around the world. You're the founder and the CEO of a company called Coconut Software. So maybe you can start by telling the audience, what does Coconut Software do? Yeah. So basically, Michelle, we are a customer engagement platform that's strategically engineered for banking and credit union sector. And we really started with our core offering with around appointment scheduling and lobby management. And a lot of time people feel that's very transactional. But when you add services to it, you're really creating an experience. So we're really bringing back the human element to banking, which also needs technology to make those experiences more personal, more real time, and provide the banks and credit unions more insights onto all of those things they didn't have before. Oh, I love that. Yeah. I heard recently that behind every technology product, there is a human. And so that we can't forget about that. So that really resonates with me. Someone said it's really D to H, direct to human. And whether you're a B2B company, a consumer company, it's like at the end of the day, you're a human on the other side. And I was like, we need to remember that more often. Yeah. And like financial brand came out with a stat like 84% of people still want to talk to somebody about money. Like they need advice. This is very personal to people and that's what matters. I love that. That's great. So can you maybe give us an example of maybe a customer that you're working with and maybe how you gave us a great overview, but like kind of help contextualize it. Maybe give us an example of a customer and how using coconut software and what that experience is like. Yeah, absolutely. So one of our customers is a Capital One. I think most people are familiar with them. And so what they do is through different channels. So maybe it's through marketing, maybe it's through Google, maybe it's through their website. They're allowing customers to book retail services online. So is it, I need to schedule time to do a bank transfer or a wire transfer, because I need to come in opening an account. Maybe we're going to discuss things like mortgages, all of these other pieces. And what's really interesting is when we think about booking that appointment, what people are also benefiting from is we can track things like application to close conversion rates. Can we actually finish that service in that meeting? And perhaps we can, because as they're booking the service, we can help them say, these are the things you need to bring. These are the things that need to be signed. And if we can help them with the appointment volume, we also can allocate our workforce better. So you know how we have these peaks at banks and lunchtime, everybody's lined up. Appointments can actually come, it's kind of timely to say this, flatten the curve. Now everyone knows what that means. Yeah, exactly. But we can really, at the end of the day, we can make sure that these services are mapped to the right person at the right time. It can be virtual. It can be that, you know, when we get back to normal, going to their place of business, or is it going into the branch? So it's really at any time, anywhere, anyhow, getting the right person with the right skill set and making it a more personalized experience. And then really just tracking that customer or member MPS score. Are they more satisfied? Oh, I love this. This is great. This definitely can extend beyond financial services. I know you started in banking and financial services, but I could see a lot of other industries that could benefit from this. So that's great. Yeah, that's good. Okay, great. So coconut, you've been working on this for many years. You're, you know, you're going to almost a hundred people, real revenue, real customers, which is amazing. And there's so many entrepreneurs who have ideas like yours and they have an idea, but they don't know where, how to even start. So what, what gave you the confidence that this was the idea and to actually go for it? Oh, I feel, I feel that I was the, I, I was naive. I think I didn't really understand all the obstacles until I looked back. I didn't know that, you know, being a woman in tech was even a thing. You know, Michelle, you're from Saskatchewan. There was no tech ecosystem then. And now we're starting to see one. And so it really came down to, I was working at a different company. I was booking a flight to Boston and I thought why like booking flights are so complicated. How come I can do that at two o'clock in the morning, but I can't get a hold of, you know, my financial advisor or at that time massage therapist, like there needs to be a better way. And so I started the company with, with trying to solve the pain point for myself. Cause I hate inefficiency. I hate waiting in line. I want to do something at 10 o'clock. I just want to get it done and move on. And so I started with a $5,000 loan and I bootstrapped it for five years. Also because I didn't truly understand what it meant to raise money at that time. But I can tell you once we did in 2016, it really accelerated our growth. We've had a hundred percent growth year over year, the mentorship that we've had. It's just so, it's just a different ball game and, and it's been so good to us. So I think the biggest thing is, is just getting started, just, just start and find a way. Like I didn't even start with 5,000 in my bank. Like I had to take the loan for it. Wow. That's great. You know, I, sometimes I think people when, cause I meet a lot of entrepreneurs as do you, cause again, and, and sometimes I get asked this question all the time. It's like, how did you know this was the idea? And it's like, it's not obvious to always, sometimes you just got to go for it. And I think for some people it's very obvious and that's amazing, but it's not this like shiny gemstone sitting there. That's so obvious for everyone. You've got to, it's kind of dug down dirty. You got to polish it off. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, one of the things I got completely wrong is when I started the company, I was all about like, isn't it great. Your customers can book you online. Isn't this awesome. And what I realized is that scared the heck out of business owners. That's they were too busy. They wanted it so that they could operate more efficiently. It had nothing to do with their customers booking them. It had to do with, I don't have time to return all these calls. Maybe people are walking out because I'm not servicing them. All of those things. And what a flip because the problem I thought I was solving really wasn't the problem that the customer needed solved. So that was like a huge, huge moment. Now that you say that, that actually really resonates because sometimes do you find that entrepreneurs come with you with your ideas and you're like, actually flip around who your customer is. Your customer is the business and you're trying to make their experience better. And therefore their end customer or client experience will be better or visitor or member experience will be better. It's really interesting how often you hear that come up and up and up. So that's a good one. It's great. Absolutely. And so now you are, you are based in Saskatchewan, Canada, which as you said, has a growing tech ecosystem, and you've been a huge part of that. You've helped start your founding board member of CoLabs, which is a tech incubator in the province. And I know there are more and more success stories or some other companies where they're getting news coverage, saying they're going to go public like Vendasta. Yeah, that's so great. And you also do a ton with public speaking. And what I would say is you really give back a lot to your community. And like, why, how do you find time to do that? And why is that important to you to prioritize? I feel like this is a loaded question, but a really good question. So I think back when I started and I went to the Valley for a year, and it was Neil Dempsey's running start. And so he put us up in a house and we got to meet entrepreneurs and good ones and bad ones, learn about raising money. And I remember sitting in an office of a CEO that was overlooking the Adobe office. And he said, you know, I started this company with 500 ,000. And I thought to myself, like, if I started with 5,000, like, what could I do? And I just realized that the Saskatchewan ecosystem, we just didn't, we just didn't, we didn't know. And so actually, one of the first events I put on was something called flip the switch. And it might have been even one of the like the first early tech events. And the reason I say that is because with knowledge and understanding and mentorship, instead of us fumbling in the dark, trying to flip on the light switches, it turned on a floodlight for me. And I just thought it's so important that I can take what I learned to help other companies do that. And I think it's all about the community. And the other thing too, Michelle, maybe this is a bit of me digging in my heels, but you know, we, we can get a lot of pressure. I think it's changed quite a bit, but then to say, well, when are you moving to the Valley? When are you moving to Toronto? When are you moving to Vancouver? And I'm like, I have companies that are paying me and I did it on a shoestring. Like, I don't feel that I need to, to move to do this. And I think technology has given me that ability to say that. But I want to, I want to be able to say, we can do this from anywhere. You, you don't have to, to move now. You do need to go and you do need to learn and you do need to connect and then bring it back. So I feel really passionate about that. I love that. You know, I, even before the pandemic, I used to say the same thing where we can't just have a couple winners in technology where something like Silicon Valley is like, and Beijing and a couple of cities, like it just, that doesn't work and you need to spread it out. And my example always in Canada is it can't be just Toronto. You need other winners in the, in the country. And so I was really impressed when I went back, I was part of one of the pitch competition at CoLabs. And I was, I literally looked around, I was like, I could be in Silicon Valley and hearing these pitches. It was, I, the, the, the idea is, and the traction is very good, which was amazing. That's what you want. You want lots and lots of technology companies around the world. And, and, and I think that Saskatchewan should definitely benefit from that. I think it's great that you're raising that. And you know, one of the things too, is just the investors are willing to take a chance on that. I think we have to give them credit that they said, okay, you're there. Like we believe in it. A good example is the Verifid story. Like one of our investors invested Verifid out of St. John's, Newfoundland, half the, half the population of Saskatchewan and just was bought by NASDAQ for like 2.74 billion or something of that nature. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's U.S. So Canadian, that's like a gajillion dollars. So, but, but we can do great. Is in the U.S. favor right now in the U.S. dollar favor for those who do not follow currency exchanges. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, that investor just took a chance where some people wouldn't. So I think we have to give credit for, for those that are willing to invest in what's not the norm. Well, that's, you know, here, and then I want to talk to, move to women, but at first I want to just, I want to focus on this about not the norm. What was the conversation like with your investor when they, when they, you're like, you must've had many conversations about this. So kind of maybe to walk us through a little bit of summarize it and tell us what that was like. Hmm. I think at first I really questioned it and thought, oh my goodness. Like, do I need to move my family to Toronto? Is that what I need to do? I think we were fortunate in the sense that we had some great customers and we had some traction and we kind of proved out that we could do it. So we, we compromised to be, I wouldn't say we compromised. I said, yes, I agree. Some of the talent we need is not in Saskatoon. So we do have an office in Toronto and a good portion of our staff is actually there. And so I just committed to really spending a lot of time on a plane and flying back and forth. And as we know, a startup, sometimes there's hiccups. Like I think I was there once for seven weeks straight, which was, it's not easy because your family's not there. But I just said, okay, we're going to find a way to make it work. It almost, it almost killed me, but, but, but it did not. And now we have a, you know, a new talent in Vancouver and we're starting to hire some talent in the U S so I think it's possible for sure. You just need to find that, that way. Sometimes, you know, I, I don't, I think this idea that you had traction growth really helped solve a lot of problems. I think that is maybe one of the biggest lessons I've had in entrepreneurship is you don't have to get every single thing right. But if you're growing and you have traction, you can figure some of these other things out. And so good for you for, for, like you said, finding a way and seeing traction. And then it's like, okay, now where do we go from here? So I've really Sales cures all problems. That's what I was told. And I was like, yeah, that's right. You're like sales plus coconut software solves all problems. That's right. I've now adjusted it. I love it. Okay, great. Well, look, so you've hired a lot of people. And so I'd love to know what you look for when you're hiring for people. And you think about the best team, you people that work at coconut, like the, the, the best performers, what are they kind of share in common? You know, this is one of the biggest things I think I've discovered in building a company. Cause when you're five people in a phone booth and you hear about people talking about culture, and I remember Michelle, you even talking about the culture at Cloudflare. And when you're really early on, you, you think you get it, but you really don't get it. And I don't think it's one of those things you can get till you live. And I, I did some mis-hiring like some really bad mis -hiring. And then I understood, oh, this is why we have our values. This is what I need to be hiring on. Yes. If the resume is here, they have the skillset, but what are the values? And as soon as that really clicked for me from making these, these hires that didn't fit. And I started to know they were the wrong fit because why is our top performer leaving? Like what is happening? And when I looked back, I was like, they didn't fit this criteria. And so I think I understand it a lot better. We hold people account accountable to it. It's not just something we paste on the wall, but we look for these attributes and we even use it in our scorecard when recruiting now. Like we'll say, do you, are you showing collaboration? Do you show honesty? Are you being respectful? All of these things. And so that was a huge learning experience and I get it. And if you don't have it, I mean, there was eight of us and we sat in a room and we came up with it together and it's how we make a lot of our decisions today. I love that. You know, so much of what you're saying definitely hits a chord with me too. And it is something you learn. And sometimes I think people think, oh, that's a waste of time because you have so many things to do. You have so many things to do. So you're like, okay, well stop to make a scorecard of how, what it's obvious. And it's like, actually it's not obvious. And taking a minute to think about it pays dividends down the line. You know, especially now that we're hiring remote and now our managers are hiring, you know, how do we make sure when you're growing so fast? And that's actually one of my concerns is as we're adding so many people, are we going to lose that? And how do I make sure that we don't? So that might be a conversation we'll have to have, Michelle. Give me some pointers on it. Well, I love it, Catherine, that I'm now booking your repeat appearance in the future. So we'll talk about what we learned from that. So it's good. Okay. We can definitely chat about that. I think there's a lot to talk about that. And so turning to this month, it's Women's Empowerment Month, and obviously you're a woman in technology, a very successful woman in technology from a small community, which is not an obvious, which again, there's just so many amazing parts of your story, Catherine, and really huge kudos to you for your leadership and your motivation to make all of this happen. And so, you know, one of the questions I ask everyone who comes on, and yes we can, and normally it's the last question, but I actually want to start there and then we'll go to some of the other questions is, you know, as a woman in technology, where has industry maybe lived up to your expectations and where has it fallen short? Yeah. I have maybe a few instances that kind of blew me away when I started diving into this world. And I don't want to make this a huge focal point, but one of the things is I actually pitched to a woman VC way back in like 2016, and I could tell like we were not clicking. And I said, okay, like I know this isn't going to happen. It's very clear, but could you give me some honest feedback? Because I just want to get better and improve. Like this is a coaching moment. And she said, well, you pitch like a woman. And I was like, that was like one of the moments that it really like, it let me down. And it was, and then I wrote a post about how we went and raised 4.2 million after that. So I thought, well, maybe pitching like a woman is pretty damn good. Like, okay, we could still do this. I think where we need to really shed light on though, in terms of the industry is, you know, it is women's month diversity. You know, I'm kind of heartbroken that the investment in women has gone from 2.8 to 2.3 in 2020. And I think we keep talking to women about women's issues, but I think we need to start asking the LPs like where, how important is diversity to you? Okay. Your board members, when I'm going to raise money, I'm asking them like, is, does diversity matter to you? And there are stats that show that diverse boards that are inclusive, let's add that are inclusive, outperform the norm by over 35%. So this is just good common business sense. This isn't just a check mark. And, and I'm just so glad that everybody's starting to have a voice and we're starting to talk about it. And, you know, I'm at a point where I can feel comfortable going to my board who, who are men. I do have one woman, female independent, but, and I'm starting to see a lot of empathy around the things that perhaps conversations that they're not having with their, their male CEOs. And I'm just, I'm very inspired, even though that number is low, that we're having these conversations and people are more open to talking because when we know better, we do better. And I think this is, I don't think there's ever been a better time to be a woman in tech. I, yeah, no, there's a lot of the things that you said really resonates with me as well as the conversation has changed a lot. Like now I think it's much more top of mind. It's more acceptable to talk about it in a pot, like, okay, great. What are we doing about it? But you're right. Like I, Pam Costa runs this, is the CEO of an organization called All Raise, which basically the mission of All Raise is to get more women founders and more women investors. Like that is their investment, their mission. And you're like, how can the, how could not everyone in the world be behind this? And so I interviewed her on her TV a few months ago as part of her birthday week. And I said, Pam, this sounds amazing. And she said all the stats you just rattled off, like same sort of, and it's like, it's clear the research shows more diverse teams drive better business results that are a better place to work. Like, awesome. And what are we here to do exactly? I was like, so Pam, you make it sound like you have to convince people. She's like, oh, not everyone believes that. And I was like, really? And I was like, well, I guess that's, and so it's, it's kind of back to your point, finding the people who do believe in being successful and kind of almost having a wake behind you. Like, you know, like country is a big deal in Saskatchewan. Like I think of a lot of, um, uh, water skiing behind the boat. And it's like, you want to have a big wake behind you to, to bring people along, but there is, there is a, maybe don't start from the people who are not the deniers start with people who want to help and find those and let's make progress faster. It goes back to those values, right? Like when you're looking for investment or your leadership team or whoever it might be, like, do they embrace those values? Cause if you don't have alignment there, there's, there's so many issues. That's great. Okay. So yeah, I don't want to go into what a female pitch looks like, but, but there are a lot of women who are tuned into the audience and again, look up to you and maybe, maybe, maybe a better way to question. I do want to ask is like, what advice do you give them? Like what advice do you have for the women who either want to, who are running companies or who want to start a company or starting in their career or having a hard time? Like what would be some of your advice for them? Um, you know, I, I heard this isn't what I, I, I think this has been said before, but it resonates so well is that progress is better than perfection. And I think sometimes we are so under the light to act a certain way, look a certain way, do things a certain way, outperform a certain way, do it all on your own. I think asking for help is a really big thing and it's hard to do because we want to be able to do it all on our own. Um, and I was that like, that's why I bootstrapped my company for five years. I just was like, nope, I'm going to do this on my own. I was like, smokes, I can't do this on my own. And I think embracing help and reaching out. I think that's the one thing that really blows my mind is how often I've reached out to folks to ask a question and how willing they are to help. And so I think it's just, you know, yeah, progress is better than perfection. Just start, you know, reach out. You'll be surprised how many people are willing to help you. Um, that sounds kind of lame and maybe cliche, but I think it makes all the difference. I think it is like a cover of a homework, homework. It is, but it's true. It is true. And you know, like I said, I was too, too naive to know like all these stats and all these obstacles. I didn't even know you weren't supposed to build a tech company in Saskatchewan. So I think I was just like, ignorance was bliss a thousand percent. And I think, um, if someone from Saskatchewan who, who can do this, I think you can do it from anywhere. So don't, don't limit your own thinking. I think that's what stops people. Like it's their own thinking. So just know you can. Yeah. What about your support system in your personal life? Because I, you know, like sometimes yourself, but it's also sometimes people around you, it's almost like they can be an enabler or, or yeah, or it came, but work both ways actually. Um, and I think Malcolm Gladwell has some really good research that shows like, that's one of the reasons why immigrants or one of the theories, you know, one of the theories is that why immigrants who moved to the United States are so successful outperforming in some of their tech ventures is because you've have to go a little bit against the grain when you're starting something. What about in your personal life? Like, did your, what did your life partner say? What did your parents say? Like, did they, were they saying, go Catherine or like, Oh, this is risky. Oh, I, so I had mixed reactions. I think, um, growing up being on a farm in Saskatchewan is like, first things first is like, work is a great thing. Be grateful. You can get up, you can, you're mentally and physically able to work. So work ethic was, we celebrated that we weren't like, Oh my goodness, when is the day over? It was like, no, be great of what you accomplished. So I think that was a huge, huge key, um, to being able to have them to do this because it is a marathon. Um, I think the, the, a lot more questions came not so much from my family, super supportive. Like, you know, you got this Catherine, um, was, uh, when I was pregnant, like I quit my job with her when I was three months pregnant to do this and I had a great job. And, um, you know, some people said to me, why don't you stay and wait to get your mat leave and kind of do it then. And I just use the criteria of like, would I regret this? Like if something happened, would I regret not taking a chance? And I realized the worst thing that could happen is I could probably just end up back at that, that same job. So is that so bad? And, um, so that's probably the only time in life where it was, uh, I got questioned maybe a little bit and not even from my family, but from, from outside. Yeah. Like a friend or, and there's a lot of reasons. There's a lot of good. Yeah. That is not, they probably really, you know, when businesses fail, it's kind of like that makes a lot, but I can see why people would say that. However, sometimes they succeed and you've shown that it's possible. Yeah. And I have to give a big shout out to Romeo. Who's our CTO. You know, he, he, uh, took that jump with me and when I needed to crawl under the desk to take a nap, you know, he was on the phone and it was, uh, I could not be here without him. So. I love that. That's great. It is, it is amazing how, um, teamwork, what you can accomplish when you have the right people on the team. Yeah, exactly. Everything. People are everything. They really are everything. Yeah. Part of my job. Oh, hands down. Best part of my job. People I get to work with second best part of my job or customers. Like it's just, it's incredible. Okay. So, you know, as, as other organizations, let's say, um, you know, they're like, oh, wow. Okay. Maybe we want to build a more inclusive, um, environment work. What, any words of advice to those sorts of managers or leaders or founders thinking maybe I could do better with any, any. Um, there's a few things that we've done. One is we've committed to an initiative called pay up for progress, and I believe it's available in the U S and Canada, and it's all about, um, closing the gender pay gap. So in Canada last year, I think equal pay day was April 4th, which means, you know, women are working 16 months equal to their, their counterpart males working for 12 months. And so we took like a pledge and we get held accountable by our cohort to be like, are you, are you really committed to equal pay? And so when people come in, they could know that this is something, um, that, that we stand for. Um, and the other thing too, is just, uh, looking at our diversity stats and something that was a real eye-opener is you could report like half of our company is women and half of our company is men. And I realized, but if they're all in traditional roles, is that any, that's not good. So really now just focusing on departments, are we, what is the, and again, we're small going from 50 to a hundred. It's like, let's look at the department. So if we only, if we didn't have any female engineers, but they were all in marketing and admin, well then who cares about the percentage? So just really looking at, at the different departments and, and making sure that we have a good representation of diversity. And that's really like pushing us to also extend our networks. Like if our networks look like ourselves and we look at our, let's say recruiting, you know, if our pipeline isn't diverse and our network, even prior to the pipeline, isn't diverse, then I don't think we're going to see a lot of success. So I always say we have to be intentional and really focused. And this isn't, this is a, this is something you just need to decide is important and make sure everyone in the company, you know, is on board. And so we spend a lot of time on education and obviously when Black Lives Matter happened, it was a real eye-opener for a lot of us. And so just embracing that and talking about it is really important at Coconut. You know, it's interesting that the talking about it is interesting. Did you find like when you start to talk about it more through your leadership team, that, that it was hard for some people? You know, I think I would, I would be lying if I said it wasn't hard for me to start with and not because it wasn't important. I just didn't know how to approach it and be like diplomatic. I was too scared. I would say something that would offend somebody. And so I just had these, I had conversations and said, listen, I don't, I don't know how to address this or, or what to say. Like, what, what can I do? And then that really helped open up the conversation around it. And we've actually had some people pull out of the interview process when we talk about this and they're all like, oh, like, like, oh, you, you care about that? I don't know if this is the kind of place you want to work. And we're like, great, get out. Like, perfect. I didn't think that could happen in 2021, but yeah. We've worked to, you know, the reason I'm so interested, like, thank you for sharing, first of all, thank you for sharing that. And our head of people, Jenna VanWise, who's, who's been with us for many years. She's wonderful. She has a great term for what you just described, Catherine, which I'm going to use here is just like, we can't, it's okay. We have to be okay with letting people put their foot in their mouths. Like for like, cause like, I think that sometimes people are scared to say anything because they're worried to say the wrong thing or don't know what to say. And they don't want to put their foot in their mouths and they don't want to get torn down. And if people, good intentions trying to learn, okay, what do I do here? Like it's, we gotta be a place where it's okay. So, cause that's how we can learn and move on from there. And so I feel like there could be like a big banner. It's okay to put like, let's put our foot in our mouths more because if you care about it more and you measure it and you pay equally, like, I think we can make some progress. So. Absolutely. You know, I talked earlier about the investors and, you know, a lot of times it's a lot of white men, but when I asked this question, if the, if the response is very thoughtful and saying, Hey, we acknowledge like this does not look good, but we are, these are the steps we're doing. Like, I think that's all it's, it's going to take time, but as long as the intention is good and we're going the right way, I love what you said. I'm going to, I'm going to keep that one. Awesome. Awesome. All right. We're out of time, Catherine. This was so fun. Thank you so much. Like I said, the best way to spend my Friday morning, have a wonderful day. We're all rooting for you. Coconut software sounds amazing. I can't wait to watch all your success. Thanks, Michelle. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks everyone for tuning in next week. Bye.