Cloudflare TV

🎂 Shellye Archambeau— A Conversation

Presented by Michelle Zatlyn, Shellye Archambeau
Originally aired on 

2020 marks Cloudflare’s 10th birthday. To celebrate this milestone, we are hosting a series of fireside chats with business and industry leaders all week long.

In this Cloudflare TV segment, Michelle Zatlyn will host a fireside chat with Shellye Archambeau, Fortune 500 Board Member, Author and Former CEO of MetricStream.

Watch more Fireside Chats 🎂

Birthday Week
Fireside Chat

Transcript (Beta)

Good evening. Welcome everyone. Welcome back to Cloudflare's fireside chat for our 10th birthday week and tonight I have the opportunity to end the pleasure of speaking with Shellye Archambeau.

Welcome, Shellye. Well, thank you. It's great to be here.

Thanks so much for doing this. It's great to connect and I'm so excited to chat tonight.

Oh, absolutely. It's great to do it on your 10th anniversary special time.

Well, I've been saying a couple of times this week about how, you know, in a cloudy 2020, you kind of need to celebrate some of the bright spots.

So this has definitely been a fun celebration and getting to share it with a lot of people that we knew and know people, new people we're getting to know with the world has been great.

So thanks again for being here. Awesome. So I want to dive in because you've just had such an incredible career.

I mean, you were a CEO at a company called Threatmetrics for 15 years.

You are now on the board of many publicly traded companies that many of us have heard of, like Verizon and Nordstrom's like amazing companies, Roper Technologies, Okta, great other technology company.

And so I wanted to start by, as you think about your career, because again, the first part of these conversations are often looking back at the last 10 years, and then we'll go forward to the next 10.

What are some of the reflections you've had working with your operating company and now sitting on the board of these operating companies?

What are some things that you would do again?

And maybe what are some things that you've changed your mind on as you reflect over the last 10 years?

Goodness, when I think about the last 10 years, between board works, I've been serving on boards that long, as well as here's the CEO role that I've had.

Things that I would do again, I do, I totally do the company again.

And you have to understand when I took over Metricstream, it was actually called Zapplet at the time, and it was really broken, heading out of business.

There was a hard, hard turnaround.

And if I known how hard it was going to be, I'm not sure I would have taken the job up front.

But now on the other side, even knowing how hard it was, I do it all over again, because I learned so much.

You learn so much more when you actually go through very challenging times.

And you also end up building really strong relationships with your teams, because it's almost like you're in battle together, right?

And it just the whole experience of being in crisis with somebody really strengthens and builds out the teams.

So those pieces, I wouldn't want to trade out. And when I think about, all right, so what would I change?

Or what would I do differently? That is probably the hardest question, because I'm a big believer that things happen, if something happens, it leads to the next thing happening.

So if you change this, all the rest of the dominoes change.

And I kind of like the way things have added up. So I'm afraid that if I change something back here, I'd end up in a different place.

Now, I'm not saying it wouldn't be better, but I'm pretty happy with where things have ended up already.

So I'm not really going to change much. You had an amazing, amazing career.

So I can see why you would say that. It's interesting, you said that MetricStream, sorry, I misspoke when I was doing your introduction.

So thank you for correcting me, important detail.

So you said that MetricStream was in a bad spot when you took over as CEO.

Why did you take that job? Because I had an ambition to be a CEO my entire career.

And I had this plan. I'm a very intentional person, so I set goals, plans in place, et cetera.

And I was just finishing up my role really at LoudCloud Opsware with Mark Andreessen and Ben Horowitz.

LoudCloud was turning into Opsware, smaller software company.

It was the perfect time for me to go after my CEO role.

It was from a career standpoint, but from a market standpoint, it was terrible.

This is 2002. So this is after the dot-com had imploded and the valley is littered with companies that have gone out of business.

And therefore with CEOs that are out of jobs, all looking for jobs.

So frankly, I knew that I wasn't going to get an A play.

I wasn't going to get a company that everybody thought was going to be successful because I hadn't been a CEO before.

And I'm not really from the valley and I don't look like your typical CEO.

So all of them like, you know what? I'm not getting an A play, but I've been fixing things my whole career.

And I was like, you know what?

As long as I find something with good, I call it good bones, right? With good capability that I can work and figure out how to go make something out of it.

I just wanted to make sure it was with a top tier VC firm, right? And a strong partner.

And so that's what I got. Kleiner Perkins, Binod Khosla, you know, it's hard to get much better than that.

And so that was how I mitigated the risk of what I was stepping into.

But that's why I took the job. I love it. I love it. And that's so real because I think this is the reality of what it's like.

So I love that you share that.

You said that you don't look like everyone else and it's true. You were one of tech's first black women CEO.

What was that like? Oh gosh. I'll be candid. When I first came to Silicon Valley, I was shocked.

I was shocked because I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to Silicon Valley.

I mean, Silicon Valley is the place with innovation, right?

New ideas, creativity, et cetera. I just knew it had to be diverse.

And not, not, right? And so that part was really a shock. With regards to what was that like?

I'm sure some things were more challenging for me. I wasn't anybody else's shoe.

So I don't know if it was easier, right? In terms of for them.

But I also knew because I've, I've always been, frankly, one of the few and things that I've done because I've been in tech my entire career.

So I always approach things the same way.

I assume that people are going to think that I'm not quite capable, right?

Not quite competent. You know, not quite just that little, I know people are going to think that.

So I try to go in with the same ways.

Like I have to prove myself. I know I have to create both to the people who I'm working for and to the people who are working for me.

And I've always found that using a servant leader approach is the most effective way to really go in and focus on the team.

If I can help the team be successful, then I will be successful. So that has worked for me over and over again.

It's amazing. And I know in the opening, you mentioned about, you know, when you go through battle, like at MetricStream, where you're turning it around and competing in a competitive market and finding product market fit and getting the business back on ways, like you really do learn a lot about people, the good and the bad, and some really strong bonds get formed.

And this is a theme that I've heard over and over and over this week.

Have you kept in touch with those people, like your team? Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely have. Good for you. Yeah. That's another thing that I've heard of just this, these long relationships, how they kind of keep paying it forward.

And it's one of those kind of things that I don't think we talk enough about in tech.

So I just wanted to highlight that, which is great. Okay. So you've had this amazing operating career.

You're one of the first female black tech CEOs and did an amazing job.

And now you're sitting on all these different boards again.

And I mean, these are amazing companies, Okta, beloved tech technology company.

We are a happy customer here at Cloudflare. Glad to hear it.

Yes. Yeah. Nordstrom's. I personally like to shop at Nordstrom. So thank you. Very good customer service.

Love that. Verizon, Roper Technologies. How did you decide you wanted to join boards?

You know, it's interesting. I didn't even realize what a board and a board director really did until I was probably in my thirties, early thirties.

And I'm like, oh wait, I mean, a board director is actually a real job and they can hire and fire the CEO.

I'm like, huh. Well, being a CEO was always my goal.

And I said, well, if that's the case, then I want to aspire to actually be at one point, be a board director.

So I just added that to my goal list.

And you know, it's interesting because I put it in the plan and I'm putting in the plan.

I do what I always do. It's like, okay, that's the goal. Then what has to be true for me to achieve it?

And how do I make it true? That's literally how I approach everything, whether it's a company, you know, in order for us to win in the marketplace, what has to be true?

And then how do I make it true?

And that's what helps create kind of the overall plan. And then you go execute the plan.

So I do that in how I handle companies, my career, right? All of it. But I've always been just very intentional.

Oh, that's great. I love that.

I'd love to see your plan, your book of plans, because it would probably inspire all of us.

Actually, you could probably write a second book. We're trying to get to your first book.

Publishing your book of plans would be actually very helpful.

And so, okay, so now you're sitting on four boards. And one of the things I find really interesting is you kind of now have a portfolio.

You see a breadth.

And these are different industries, different sizes. I mean, some companies are, Nordstrom's been around for a long time.

Octo's a newer company, kind of formed the last 10 years like Cloudflare.

What are some similarities between those four boards that you work on, that you serve on, and maybe some differences?

Absolutely. So one of the things that I really enjoy is transformation.

And if you think about it, two things drive transformation. One is disruption.

And if you think about it, Nordstrom, absolutely disrupted. Verizon, transformation is coming because they have basically the market for cell phones.

I was trying to see if mine was here.

Here we go. The market for cell phones, right? Everybody's got one.

It's not like there's huge growth to go sell some more. So you've got to figure out how you transform yourself to actually grow in a different way, right?

Companies that are growing like in Octa, well, they're doubling, right?

Cloudflare, you are growing. So what worked when you were size A does not work at 2A.

So you have to constantly transform yourself. And Roper is actually a growth company as well.

They grow through acquisitions, et cetera. And so every time it's, all right, what's the platform?

How do we build? So I like transformation.

I like figuring out, okay, how does everything scale? How do we change?

How do we make sure we're always focused on the customer, right? And optimizing that value proposition, changing as the customer changes.

I enjoy that.

So they all have that in common. That's cool. Kind of hear where we're going there.

I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Are there any differences like, or stark differences?

Yeah, huge differences. And yes, public knowledge, right?

So huge differences. I mean, here we are in COVID. So Octa, you know, if anything, companies need more of Octa as they move more of their business to the cloud and need security, identity management, et cetera.

You know, Verizon, everybody wants more bandwidth, right?

In places that hadn't been planned on before. So both of them are being pulled in terms of your resources.

And yet you have a company like Nordstrom, which is like, who thought that the stores which drive the majority of the revenue would just close for months, right?

And even now that they're open malls in many places are still closed.

And so it's tough, right? It's tough.

You have to figure out, okay, how do we pivot like this? How do we accelerate the plans that we had in place, you know, et cetera.

So it's a different dynamic.

And Roper actually is a company that has a really diverse set of companies.

So some of their companies are doing very well, and some of the companies are really struggling, but overall, you know, they're managing well.

Interesting that it really, you kind of do see the chasm for a woman who likes to plan.

Closing the stores is not in the plan.

No, no, no. It was not in the risk profile for sure.

But clearly good, quick to react and act. So that makes sense. So, you know, again, you mentioned the pandemic and we are living through a pandemic.

I'm just curious.

And if, as you've gone and sat on these boards, like how are the boards supporting these organizations that are going through so much change?

I mean, you talk about Verizon.

I mean, something we've seen at Cloudflare is through this pandemic, Internet traffic up 50% overnight basically.

It is a lot of extra, like you said, demand out of nowhere.

And so how did you see the board support these organizations?

Were you uplifted by what you saw or were you kind of discouraged by what you saw?

Oh, no. I would say overall, I'm really proud of all the management teams.

You know, I think as we got into COVID, as you're looking at kind of March, April, it was like, oh my God, right?

And so it was all about safety, stability, right?

Making sure that you've battened down the hatches and we're going to be okay through this storm.

But then quickly, once you got that righted, then it all became focused on, all right, now what's our strategy?

Are these changes affecting our overall strategy?

And if so, let's make sure we address that. You know, if not, then what should we be doing now, right?

To prepare even more for our strategy.

So if anything, I see companies, at least the ones that I'm engaged with, actually focusing on how do they accelerate their strategy during this time, right?

Because many times when you go through a crisis, trends that were already underway, get accelerated.

And we're seeing that to your point, Internet traffic, right?

Online shopping, delivery service. I mean, you name it, video conference, look at us, right?

This was just something that, you know, happened from time to time and now it is the way.

So we've accelerated all these things that should have taken years of adoption.

We've done it in months. And when you do that, it honestly creates a lot of disruption because the companies that were managing it the old way, right, are in trouble, but it also creates a lot of opportunity.

You know, I think it's times like these that are the best time to actually try new things because the risk threshold is actually higher.

So if anything, now's the time for companies to actually test new things, try new things, because the market, as well as investors, are a bit more forgiving right now.

And so take advantage of it.

I love that. You know, it's so interesting you say that because personally at Kloffler, one of the ideas that came out of this kind of, you know, we sell to large organizations, so we often go to trade shows, but those don't exist anymore.

So it's like, well, how do you start to introduce ourselves to new people?

And so Kloffler TV, this 24-hour, seven-day-a-week platform was created. And the idea was anybody in the company could create an experiment, try something new.

And people have created game shows, they demo things, they bring in, we do talk shows, people have recreated kind of current affair talk shows.

And that is just a new way to connect with the world to replace some of the ways that we used to.

And the whole point was what you said is now's a great time to try these things. The risk is low.

Exactly right. Exactly right. Well, you know, the other thing I'd say, because I was talking to Pam Akoska, who's the CEO of All Raise, which I was mentioning to you earlier.

And what you said also, I hope for any women founders listening or people of color, I hope you take what Shelly just said and said, wow, maybe now is a great time to start a company because so many great companies will be born right now because there's a big shift going on.

So some businesses are hard, but there's a new opportunity.

And I hope the next generation of entrepreneurs who happen to be a lot of women, a lot of underrepresented minorities, take it and leap and run with it as far as they can.

Yeah, I fully agree. Okay, one more question about the past, and we'll turn to your book in the future, because the future is near with your book launching next week.

And again, you've had this incredible, you spent your career in technology, this incredible rise.

And if you think about the last 10 years, has anything surprised you about the Internet?

Oh, gosh.

You know, probably the piece that's been surprising is just how long it's still taking some people to actually get on board with the Internet.

I mean, one of the things that the pandemic has done, actually, is it's pulled a lot more people online than were online before, because they don't have any option, you know.

And especially when you think of older populations, you know, even older populations are actually getting online.

But I was surprised that we still had, we think of, you know, especially our generation of people in tech, I mean, everybody's on the Internet, right?

I mean, everybody's online and doing stuff. The answer is no, no.

Online shopping, pre -COVID, was still like 10%. You know, people think it was like half, but it wasn't.

So what surprised me is actually how slow the adoption has been up until this point.

But now it's accelerating. Kind of back to your point, all these trends are accelerating.

This one feels like it's here to stay.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. All right. Thank you. Okay, so let's turn to the future.

And I'm going to turn to the near-term future where you're launching your book on Tuesday, October 6th, Unapologetically Ambitious.

So congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you. Yes, it's very exciting. I mean, you've had this incredible career, you're serving on these boards.

Why did you decide to write a book?

Oh, gosh, I know. Because honestly, when I was laying out my personal career goals, et cetera, being an author was not on the list.

Okay, wasn't it the original plan?

No, no, it's not the original plan. But what happened, Michelle, is I've always tried to be accessible in my career.

I wanted people to be able to, you know, if they reached out, I responded.

But as I got more and more responsibility, I couldn't meet with everyone that wanted to meet with me.

And that bothered me.

It really bothered me because I wanted to be able to help and share perspective and what works, et cetera.

I said, you know what, one day I'm going to write it down.

I'm just going to write it down so that I can share with people so that other people can also improve their odds.

Because frankly, I had no business becoming CEO of a tech company.

Think about it. You know, back when I was growing up, right, nobody looked like me.

And as you just said, it's not even like there were a whole lot of people decades before me, there weren't.

So odds were I shouldn't have been a tech CEO, but I did it.

And I want to be able to share with others the strategies, right, the techniques, the tactics, sometimes the hacks, right.

But they can help you improve your odds to actually get what you want professionally as well as personally.

So that's why I wrote the book, because it really bothers me that so many people don't achieve their aspirations and don't even have the chance to actually contribute to like half of their capability.

That is so much talent wasted, and it's such a shame. So I wanted to do my part to help.

I love that. Oh, my God, I cannot wait to read this book. By the way, I've already pre-ordered my copy.

So I'll be waiting in my mailbox on Tuesday, which is kind of the great delights of when people write books where you kind of get it the day it gets released.

Yeah, exactly. That's right. If you pre-order, you'll get it on the 6th.

If you wait until after the 6th, it's going to come later.

Right, exactly. But I love that. I love that I like pre-order it and then it arrives the day.

It gives me that delight of when new content comes on. In the physical world, which is wonderful.

So what was it like to write a book? I mean, so I love the premise behind it.

And again, I hope it's a huge smashing success and I'm looking forward to reading it and sharing it with people internally at Cloudflare.

But what was it like to go through writing a book? I've heard that it's really hard.

It is hard, because here's what happens. You have an idea in your head of what you want to communicate and what you want to say, right?

And I'm not a writer.

So it's not like I start and the first time it just all flows nicely, beautifully.

No, no, no. So the first time you go through, or at least I went through, I don't know about other people.

First time I went through, it's like, okay, I used to schedule blocks of time, like in four-hour chunks, to try to get in my head in the game, you know, write, et cetera.

And sometimes I wrote a lot and sometimes I wrote a little.

So it just depended upon where my head was the whole bit.

But you get done kind of the first time through and it's like, okay, but it's almost like building a table.

You know, you can create a table that's functional, right?

Plywood, four legs, it works as a table, but nobody's going to buy it, right?

So, okay, then you come back and you say, fine, let me sand it down, add some stain, make it prettier.

Well, it looks prettier, but it's still not necessarily something I'm going to pick out over something else.

Well, the book was the same way.

For me, it was writing it kind of in layers. So I wrote it. All right, got the basic facts, but not all that interesting.

Okay, let me come in and make sure of the stories, add some depth, right?

Add some perspective. How's that? Okay, but now we got to tighten it up, right?

Change the order, add something. So it was really this process of kind of writing, revisiting, writing, revisiting, writing, revisiting.

And honestly, you get close to the end and you're like sick of the book.

It's like, I don't want to read it again, right? It was really funny. But overall, I would tell you, yes, it is work.

You definitely have to have fortitude to drive it.

But it feels great when you actually get it. I was just showing you before, it's like, oh my God, here, I'll show you.

Yeah, you have to show it.

I'm sure you were like, I never want to see this again until it showed up in your mailbox.

And now you're like, I did this. Yes, it's like a real book, right?

The cover, the whole bit, it's like, oh my God, it's real. So anyway, so now I'm like, okay, now I'm excited again.

So you actually wrote it, because I know that some people hire ghostwriters, but like you wrote it yourself.

Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting.

I actually tried. So full story, because people said, oh, hire a ghostwriter, you don't have time.

Then I said, okay, right. So I did. And we did this thing, we got it done.

And like, no, that's not what I wanted. Not what I wanted.

It doesn't sound like me. It's not me. Nope. So it's like, throw that out.

And right, kind of do this thing again. So, but it was helpful. You know, it worked.

It's almost like having a, you know, a writing coach, you know, it was helpful to do that, hired an editor, you know what I mean?

So definitely had people in terms of helping through.

But yeah, the complete ghostwriting, here it's written, go publish it.

No, that didn't work for me. I wanted my voice to come through. I wanted, and hopefully, you'll have to tell me when you read it, Michelle, but I think it comes through as being me and authentic.

That's what I wanted. Good. Well, I think this world needs more authenticity, more than ever.

So the leaders that have the authenticity, I, sounds like you made the right choice.

It actually kind of reminds me of metric stream where you said at the beginning, where you said, oh, so hard, but looking back, I wouldn't have changed anything because it led to all these sorts of things.

So I like to remind myself that most great things in life are really, really hard.

They are. It's also when you get the best learning, right?

I mean, they build, it's almost like, you know, building muscles, right?

You know, you got to work it hard. So you tear it down a bit.

So it grows back stronger. I, you know, it's the same thing. My son and my mother used to say growing up, whenever we complain about, oh, it's something so hard, I have to push through.

It's like, it builds character, builds, it was always your thing.

It's okay. It builds character. And I was like, I don't need any more character.

Oh, gosh.

As usual, mom was right. You know, speaking of mom. So as my young child is crying in the background, yelling at her brother.

So I'm sorry for all the listeners.

I really don't know what to do, but anyway, that aside, let their dad figure it out.

You've been really outspoken about, obviously you've had this impressive career, but you also talk a lot about your family.

And I love that you do that.

I think we need more people to talk about both their work and their family because we are one person doing all these sorts of things.

Exactly right. Why did you share so much about your personal life?

I don't want to put words to you about that.

Why have you decided to do that? Yeah. Because honestly, I think it's important to see the full person, right?

Otherwise you're just seen as someone who did something that's not touchable or not real.

Right? And I just wanted to show, no, just as real, right?

Just as real, had the same issues, right? Same kid problems, same daughter hates her mom for a while, right?

It's the same thing. And that way people can better relate.

Because back to, again, I want people to believe that if I could do it, you can do it.

And if I'm not sharing all of that stuff, then it's really not very real.

Because you sit there and go through your life and like, yeah, but she'll have to deal with this or deal with that.

And she'd have kids screaming in the background while she's trying to present.

And she didn't have the answers.

Sure I did. Sure I did. So I want people to see that and then also see how I dealt with it.

What worked, what didn't. Yes, I made choices. Some were great, some not so great, but you know what?

They were choices. I made them and I own them. So those were all the reasons because life is complicated, right?

And I think making it look easy doesn't help anybody.

I love that. Well, I'm looking forward to the things that worked and didn't work recommendation piece of the book.

So that will be very helpful as someone who was going through that right this exact second.

Awesome. Okay. So again, you've sat on all these boards, you've had this incredible operating career.

Now you've written a book, you have this great perspective.

As you think ahead for the next 10 years and in the technology industry, the Internet, what are some of the opportunities that you see that lie ahead?

And then after that, after you hear about your opportunities, I'd love to hear about some of the challenges that you also maybe worry you a little bit.

Yeah. So honestly, I am really excited about where the combination of 5G, artificial intelligence, broadband everywhere, and then the no code movement.

I think you put all those things together and there's going to be some incredible power that can be distributed.

Right now, the power of software is amazing, but you have to know how to code.

So if we can get to the point where you can actually create the capability of software, but don't necessarily have to know how to code, it's going to open up access tremendously right around the world.

And there is so much, to my point, there's just so much talent out there and broad thinking and innovation that if we can allow everyone to leverage that, I just think we're going to see some amazing, amazing things.

So that gets me super excited. Now, the flip side is- Well, just before, can you describe that?

Because I love that. And actually it reminded me of a lot about what this woman Hayden Brown, I met, talked to her yesterday.

She's the CEO of Upwork. And what you were just describing, you're like, yes.

And what I love about that is when you said distributed, it doesn't necessarily mean it's all going to be in the Silicon Valley or New York City.

You really mean the word distributed in the sense of the talent opportunity is going to go where the talent is and talent is everywhere, which is a point she was making yesterday.

It absolutely is. And so much talent just doesn't have access of a way of displaying it, a way of using it, a way of contributing towards it.

So that's the piece that gets me for sure excited.

On the flip side, I am a little concerned because you'll be able to, anybody can use it and anybody can leverage it.

And so we have a lot of people who want to do things for good, but there's still that small percentage of people who want to use it for bad.

And I think, so we're still always going to have this push pull issue around things that create good, also open up opportunities for people to take advantage in a bad way.

So we're going to have to be careful of that.

And we're going to have to be careful that biases that exist, not just in the US, but biases that exist all over the world, aren't just hard-coded into this software.

Because if you learn, AI is all about machine learning.

You learn from decisions that have been made. Well, if decisions have been made in a flawed way forever, you're going to pull all those flaws right through and just magnify them.

So those are probably the two things that concern me the most.

Yeah, I think those are really good things to be concerned about. And I actually think that's a great opportunity for policymakers, the technologists to come up with solutions on how to dampen this so they don't have such big cascading effects because you want the good and you want to protect the downside.

And I think about some of the backlash towards tech right now is I think we haven't done enough about protecting the downside the last 10 years.

And I hope that we learn our lessons and get better at that for the next 10, because again, this trend of tech is going to accelerate, but I do think we need to make sure that we're not opening up some harmful.

Yeah. I think every industry has a responsibility to frankly, I use the regulate word, but I can't think of a better word right now, but to self-regulate.

Having government regulate, it's never ideal because it's always after the fact and it's hard to have foresight on where things are going.

And therefore you end up with unintended consequences that come from it.

But governments are forced to do it when industries don't do it out the gate.

So I think I'm hoping that people are learning from what's happening to say, listen, let's just do it ourselves.

Right. We know where the risks are. We know better than government where the risks are.

So instead of hiding them and, or just trying to pretend, oh, it's not going to happen.

I don't see it right now. We ought to just figure out how to mitigate it.

We have the smartest people in the world. What the heck, right?

We can solve this if we want to. I love that. That's great. We're down to the last 30 seconds.

So yes, I know. So if people are like, oh my God, Shelly's amazing.

I want to buy her book. How can they buy your book? Where's a great spot to go to buy it?

You can buy it on Amazon. You can go to and you'll find excerpts or you can watch some of the readings, et cetera.

So you can sample it before you actually buy it.

And then you can buy it there. So all over the place.

And I would tell you, if you liked anything that you heard, you know, follow me on LinkedIn.

I put a lot of stuff out there. Instagram as well, Twitter, what have you.

So happy to continue to share. Amazing. Thank you so much.

This was such a pleasure. Such an honor. I will let you know about the book. Thank you.

I appreciate it. I'm holding you to that, Michelle. You will. You're going to hear back from me.

Anyway, thanks so much, Shelly. Thanks everyone for tuning in.

This was such an honor.