Moving the Needle

Hello, everybody. My name is Alonso Bustamante and I am part of the Cloudflare team. It's wonderful to be here with all of you on Cloudflare TV. And today we're hosting a segment called Moving the Needle on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. I am the head of our London office and also part of our special projects team. And I'm really happy to be hosting Brian Ballantyne, who's joining us today. Hello, Brian. Hey, how's it going, everyone? Nice to meet you, Alonso. It's great to have you. It's great to have you on Cloudflare TV and on the show. And just as a quick intro to Brian, for those of you who have not yet met Brian or read some of the things that he's written, Brian has held a variety of product marketing roles and diversity and inclusion roles at Vodafone and Amazon. He's the co-founder of Men for Inclusion, and he is an author of a book called Confessions of a Working Father, which I'm going to have a couple of questions on. But maybe, as I mentioned a couple of days ago, Brian, we have a tradition at Cloudflare, and a tradition is that everybody who joins the team presents a fun fact, something that we wouldn't hear or know about you from your resume or your LinkedIn. So as a guest of Cloudflare on Cloudflare TV today, I'd love to hear what your fun fact is. That's great. And thanks very much for welcoming me on Cloudflare TV. My fun fact. Yeah, something people don't expect from me is I play flamenco guitar. So Sabicas, Paco de Lucia. I play various kind of music. I haven't done a performance for dance, but with a colleague, we did a duet of Entre Dos Aguas. So that's my fun fact that surprises people sometimes. That is a beautiful song, and that's a nice talent to have. I think I shared with you the other day, I had a pretty unique experience. I used to live in Chicago for some time and happened to see Paco de Lucia at a concert in Chicago. And then he went to the same restaurant where I had dinner that night, and somebody gave him a guitar and he started playing a little three songs for the guests there, which was incredible. So moving away from guitar music, because I'm sure we could spend quite a bit of time talking about this. Confessions of a working father. You published a book in 2018, which talks about your experience as a working father and as an advocate for increased gender equality in the workplace. I'm curious to hear maybe, you know, what prompted you to write the book and maybe some other things that you can tell us about it. Absolutely. So I never set out to write a book. I started telling stories on LinkedIn about my experiences. And, you know, after I'd written a few of these, people were getting a lot of follows and people said, hey, why don't you put these into an e -book or a book so we can read them. And with Kindle Direct Publishing on Amazon, it's pretty easy to create a book. I think taking a step back, the reason I started telling these stories is because I was doing allyship talks within Amazon. I was asked to go to Madrid to speak to our Women in Engineering kind of male allies group there and talk about my experiences of being a male ally. I was then asked to go to Berlin and spoke to a group there and even to Virginia. So I spoke at a data center in Virginia. Got first-hand experience of data center security, which is pretty extreme. And then also in one of our offices in Virginia. And it was interesting speaking to 120 people, pretty multicultural audience, and most of them with kind of bemused looks on their faces. And, you know, a woman in a headscarf from the Middle East said to me, like, why is there a white man talking to us about diversity? And so I said, okay, let's just stop the presentation and let me tell you why this is important to me. Like, you look at me and you see, you know, a cis white man. I grew up in a blended family. After my mother died when I was six, my dad remarried. And, you know, my family is a mix of skin colors, religions, abilities, sexualities. And growing up in a big family where you're seeing things on a first-hand basis in terms of discrimination or in terms of allyship and fighting for equality, you know, that's where a lot of my passion for this comes from. So I started, you know, telling these stories about, you know, experiences, about my family, and I put some of these on LinkedIn. I think in parallel with that, I've been working in a diversity role within Amazon, and, you know, particularly looking at women in technology. I was part of the international technology team reporting to the VP. About 1,200 people. We're trying to improve the percentage of women engineers that we recruited, developed, promoted, and reduced the kind of attrition. And thinking a lot about this and a lot of the advice I was getting was, oh, focus on women. Women need more confidence. Women need to go to, you know, these circles. They need to lean in. They need to do this. And, you know, what I was seeing first-hand was that was not really the problem. It wasn't really making a difference. I even went to women in technology in Amsterdam, 2,000 women, about 20 men, and the whole audience was being told, you know, we need more women in technology. And they're all nodding. I was like, this is just an echo chamber. So, you know, talking to a friend who'd done research in this area, she said, well, you know, if you look at the research, the groups where women get ahead isn't because they're going to circles or reading lead-in. It's because the men in their lives are helping with the kids and helping with the house, you know, which a lot of men do anyway. So it kind of was like an aha moment for me. Like, you don't need to focus on the women. Focus on the men. And, you know, this idea of a working father was kind of playing of the stereotype of working mother. Like, you don't usually hear working father. So I just flipped it around and, you know, stepped up as a role model and said, this is what I do as a working father who wants flexibility. But really it was an indirect way of supporting women. And it's been great to see many men at Amazon have read the books from Brazil, from Europe, and said, you know what, I read your book. And then I took parental leave. I'm being more active. I feel like, you know, I can be there more with my kids. So that's sort of the story of how the book got there. So I'm curious, and it's fascinating that, you know, you spent a significant amount of your professional and personal time focusing on these issues. And I think it's one thing to grow up in a diverse environment with a diverse family. And I think it's very different to make the conscious decision to spend part of your professional and part of your personal time on this issue. You know, we all have limited time and you decided to not only advocate, but spend, you know, one of your finite resources, which is time on this. Tell me a little bit more, you know, what prompted you to spend time actively on this? Absolutely. And I think, you know, as Steve Jobs says, we connect the dots in hindsight. So I can tell those stories about my family now, but what triggered me to get involved? I think in my 20s, you know, I did marketing. I was working at Vodafone and wasn't really seeing firsthand much discrimination. And I think it was, it wasn't until I got involved in the recruiting process and I saw a particular manager looking at resumes for a role, you know, and saying, well, she'd be perfect, but she's the age to have a baby and just tossing it. No, he'd be great, but look at that surname. I know we're not going to get on. It was an ethnic surname. And I just remember being so shocked. Like, I just thought that's not fair. Like, I was just so surprised by it. And then even like, you know, interviewing women, even after a role was closed, just to hit the recruitment numbers. I just, you know, I felt pretty sick about it. And I, you know, it brought back a lot of these feelings of advocacy. I mean, from when I was a teenager and my stepmother fighting against our, you know, the boys' school I went to because they were making sexist comments about women in relation to sports, for example. And so, yeah, that kind of triggered me. And then I started attending, you know, some of the Women's Network meetings, getting involved. You know, the same thing happened at Amazon. And, you know, I don't want to speak on behalf of Amazon. But there were things I noticed about, you know, the culture when I joined that I thought like maybe that could be improved and even brought learnings that I'd had from Vodafone, like, you know, running International Women's Day. I launched that at Amazon about five years ago worldwide and have been involved in other ERGs. So, I think it's, you know, when you – I never really intended – I was happy doing marketing and product management, and I really enjoy that and enjoy managing people. I guess it's just when you see something that's unfair. Just for me, if you don't say anything, then you're saying it's okay. So, that's kind of how I've got involved in things. And then, you know, outside work I've got involved. I'm on the board of a nonprofit, Women in Technology. I'm also now studying this thing called Men for Inclusion and getting involved in other areas built by girls. Yeah, so that's kind of how I got sparked into it, just seeing it was unfair and wanting to make a difference. If you go back, you know, maybe 10 years, if you go back 10, 15 years, tell us a little bit about, you know, that decision to get started. I would imagine that a lot of the people that are listening to us today say, hey, a lot of what Brian's saying makes sense. He's in a position where he can influence things. But, you know, if you go back to your early professional days or your professional career, you know, what advice would you give to people who are earlier in their professional career and want to get involved in these sorts of issues and become advocates and try to affect change in the workplace? Yeah, absolutely. And if I remember back to that time, and I think it was probably around the time that I met my wife and was starting to hear about some of her experiences as a lawyer and, you know, just starting to get a sense of, you know, unfairness happening. And I thought I want to learn more about this. I saw there was an event for International Women's Day, and I showed up. And then it was a room full of women. I think there was one other guy there. And one of my friends, Marjan, she said, what are you doing here? This is the Women's Network. And I was kind of getting up to leave. I don't want to intrude. She said, no, no, sit down. We want you to listen. So this was probably one of the first experiences, just showing up. And I think I asked maybe one question about some of the data I'd seen. Otherwise, just kind of listening. And I've done that for the past 10, 15 years, just kind of showing up, whether it's the Women's Network, or the LGBT Network, or a Black Employee Network, or for accessibility. And I think a big step is just showing up. And, you know, you don't have to be an expert. And maybe there's things that you hear and you kind of haven't heard before. And you take ownership of your education. You don't bother, let's say you don't go to a Black woman and say, oh, give me some resources, help me figure this out. You go on Google, and you find out for yourself. So I think, you know, that education piece has been useful, you know, partly as well mentoring people. So I mentor, and now I manage quite a diverse team. And just hearing people's experiences. I have a lot of people who come to me saying, hey, can I tell you about something that happened? You know, this could be inside the company or outside the company. So you start to get a sense of what's going on. So I think there's that education piece. The next step, I would say, is paying attention. So, you know, you read all this, and you hear about the patterns that are happening. You think, well, that doesn't happen in my company. I don't see women being interrupted in meetings. I don't see discrimination happening. I don't see it happening in the recruitment process. Just start paying attention. So next time you're in a meeting, you know, look around. Like, what's the makeup of the meeting? You know, who's talking? Does anyone get interrupted? Who are the ideas, you know, getting credit for? Same thing in kind of recruitment events or promotion discussions or, you know, projects that are being assigned. You don't have to say anything. Just pay attention. And you'll start to see, you know, hopefully you won't see any patterns, but in many cases you will. You might see patterns that surprise you. You know, there's a senior VP at Amazon, and he just started making a tally in a meeting. He'd just make a tally of how many times one of the women was interrupted or not given credit for an idea. So I think paying attention is the first step, not just, you know, at work, but also in social situations as well. And I guess the next step would then be intervention. So there's education, pay attention, intervention. Well, I kind of came up with that on a walk in the forest today, just trying to piece it together. But, yeah, once you start noticing it, you know, and then you let it happen, you let it roll, and you let someone continually be interrupted or not getting credit for often her ideas, it's time to step up and make a comment saying, hey, I don't think she'd finished a point, or I think you're building on a point that someone else made earlier, or in some situations where it's quite extreme, just stepping in and, you know, giving a different perspective or taking someone to one side. And as a man, especially, sometimes under the radar and in groups of men, you know, I went to an all boys school from 11 to 18, and, you know, you're hearing things happening, and that's when it's great to be an ally. When, you know, let's say I'm in a group of white men and someone's making a comment about another person, I can then intervene, take that person to one side, and, you know, be an active ally. So those are some steps I would encourage people to take. And so just to show up to events, offer to help. I mean, I've helped with various events. Own your own education and start kind of paying attention and speaking up. Or was there ever a moment where there was a switch from you being maybe a learner, somebody who was curious, who was starting to attend events and trying to see the world in a different way, to when you started maybe speaking up or maybe sharing some of the things that you were learning? Was there a moment where that switch happened from listening to maybe not only listening but also sharing some of the information that you were hearing and noticing? Yeah, I think one time at a particular company, I was at a big presentation from some of our directors. And I was just so shocked by a sexist remark that someone made. I then kind of chimed in on an email thread. You know, like, is this everyday sexism at this company? And the thread kind of went viral and, you know, in the end was kind of shut down. I was just asking a question. I was just so surprised by it. And then, you know, one of our head of diversity, he said, well, let's talk about this. I think you've raised some good points. We want to create a forum. So that ended up becoming an intersectional chat forum across all of our ARGs at that company. You know, we're talking about all different topics. We're now kind of 3,000 members, I think, is what they have there. So just kind of, you know, things can viral now. I guess I grew up in an era before the Internet and before mobile phones and social media, and you kind of forget sometimes that things can viral quickly. But yeah, suddenly I was in the spotlight and putting my head up to the parapet. I wasn't just banging the drum and resharing. I was making my own opinions. And, you know, all of those learnings came together and I was able to kind of give an opinion. Yeah, and I made mistakes. I think in some of the points I was saying, I think I excluded certain perspectives and I got tough feedback on that, which, you know, you digest it and you keep going. You get a lot of feedback over the years and, you know, don't be shy, just keep learning and being open to that. But I think that was probably a key point where I went from just being sitting on the sidelines to kind of speaking up. And then from there, it just, you know, started. And even at that time, I was speaking up on the Women's Network, you know, chat thread. And some American colleagues, particularly, were quite surprised by this. Like, what's a man doing on the Women's Network? And, you know, that'd been normal in my previous company. And I even had a VP. She said, well, I don't understand it. I need to meet you and tell me why you think this is important. This was maybe seven or eight years ago. So, yeah, I guess those were times probably in the last, you know, 10 or eight years where I've started kind of speaking up more. And it's interesting that you mentioned that difference in perspectives and understandings when people are in different offices in different countries. You've obviously worked in large multinationals that have people in different places, in different countries around the world. And there's different understandings of some of these subjects and different local perspectives. So I'm curious if you have any experiences or any advice of working in high-growth multinationals and maybe making sure that people can communicate and share, you know, some broad sense of culture and norms while taking into account different local perspectives. That's a great question. Yeah, even in my team. I realize it's a loaded one. That's okay. I'm happy to ask anything. Yeah, even in the team I manage, there's a couple of people in India, people in Europe, and the Eastern West Coast. There's a variety of nationalities, you know, Pakistani and Dominican, Mexican. So there's a variety of people that I'm managing. And, you know, we just had Diwali, but also there's lots of kind of cultural things happening for different people. And you're right. It's treading a fine line between celebrating and not appropriating someone else's culture. And, yeah, I think it's, you know, Latasha Gillespie was a previously diversity lead at Amazon and she always said, you've got to be comfortable getting uncomfortable. Like, you're not always going to get it right. Maybe you're going to say the wrong thing. I think, you know, good intentions aren't enough. Sometimes the impact is going to be negative. And I think, yeah, sometimes it's being receptive to that feedback, maybe checking things through with a colleague, you know. Something I used to do with my team a couple of years ago was I used to give chocolate advent calendars coming up to Christmas. I mean, this was a tradition I had. And there was a woman in my team from Pakistan and she was Muslim. And I said, do you mind if I give you a chocolate calendar for Christmas? And she said, I would love a chocolate calendar. Like, please give it to me. You know, at the same time, like if you're working with someone and they're fasting, you know, I know there's different fasts that happen for Ramadan, for example. You know, I think it's considerate not to say like, you know, would it be better if I didn't eat or drink in this meeting? Is that going to be, you know, awkward? So I think it's just asking questions and coming from a positive place. Those have worked for me. I'm still kind of learning, still making mistakes, but gradually kind of getting it right. Just being open to different perspectives, different ways of doing things. Are there any mistakes that you can think of in this vein of, you know, being comfortable, being uncomfortable? Are there any mistakes that you can think of that it's like, man, I really learned quite a bit from that. And even though it was maybe a mistake, like I'm glad I put myself out there because the outcome further down the road was actually very valuable. That's a great one. We didn't prepare this question. So I'm thinking on my feet. I realise. Yeah, it's a great one. I'm reacting a little today. There's been a few times when, you know, I've raised what I felt was an intentional point. And then I've got pretty strong feedback, which I've then spent like two days, like a punch in the stomach and then digesting and thinking, you know, they're right. That hurts, but they're right. And I think it's sometimes when I've tried to spoken on behalf of another group, let's say I've spoken on behalf of the LGBT community. One of my children is transgender. So I feel like I have, you know, some understanding, but you might make a remark, but there's maybe nuances that you weren't aware of and there's people who might be offended or so. You know, without giving a specific example, I think, you know, that's, that's been the case when I've, when I've potentially spoken on behalf of a certain group, which I'm not part of myself and not known the full context and someone has been upset by something that I've said and given the feedback and I've, you know, and we've then talked about it. And some of those have been the best learning experiences where I've said, you know, I'm fully open to learn from this. I made a mistake. I want to hear it. And they said, you know, it's so refreshing. You're not just kind of getting defensive. You're open to here and you're open to learn, I guess, having that growth mindset. And, you know, it really upset me that I had said something that the defend that, you know, had caused that damage and I wanted to repair it. So those are tough moments and you kind of think, well, as an ally, you know, I have a lot of privileges as a straight white man. Like I don't have to be in this space. As you said, like, I don't have to be in this space. I don't have to be in this space. This is the choice. I have a lot of privilege in this. A lot of people don't have a choice. Whether they're in this space. So you kind of think, well, is it. Is this really worth the effort of me being here and after. But it really is. It really is. And you kind of pick yourself up and you think. Wow. I've got a lot to learn here, but that's, that's a great mindset. There is a lot to learn. Right. Yeah, that's. That's one experience. That's one experience. Let me ask you. And I'm going back a little bit to, to, to, to your, your book and the idea of being a working parent. I'm sure your, your perspective on work, the workplace and particularly management and interacting with colleagues. Has changed as a result of, you know, before being a parent and then after being a parent. Do you have any, any advice for, for. New parents and maybe juggling in the workplace and, and how things might change. Absolutely. And I think this isn't just for parents, but people who want to have multiple things going on in their lives, whether that's sports or hobbies or side hustles or whatever. I think as a, as a parent, when you've got a, a small human that's dependent on you for their survival, you. It kind of forces the matter. So I think what's. What I've learned and I've had, you know, sometimes you have managers who are understanding. Sometimes you have managers who don't understand or care. Is it. One thing I do is try and keep my own score. And this is something I would have told myself. You know, when I started out as a parent, I think a lot of time you, you know, you have a lot of expectations. You have your own parents and what they're expecting from you. You want to make them proud. You have your, your partner in many cases. I know some families, a single parent. You know, you have your, your work and your colleagues who have certain expectations about how much time you're going to give them. And I think a mistake I've made is trying to kind of keep everyone happy. And what I try and do now is just keep my own score. Like I, I keep a track of like, okay, I'm giving this much time to my kids. To my wife, to my work for myself. And I, and I'm happy with that balance. And you know, if other people have different opinions and then that's, that's to them, I listen to it, but I've got to keep my own score and not rely on other people's approval or permission or validation. And then what I do in practice is then I kind of time box my diary and I kind of prioritise my time. block out things like yesterday you know, evening was the parent's meeting. And then for one of my kids, they're kind of failing at half their classes. So the teacher wanted to have another meeting and it meant I have to reschedule one-on-one with my manager. And I said, look, like, this is the truth of what's happening. You know, especially these days, everyone's pretty open to personal situations. So yeah, she, I was, I was informing her. I wasn't asking permission. But just to kind of reschedule that one-on-one. But yeah, I kind of time box my diary and kind of prioritize, there's times, I mean, not just time, but energy, with a coach I was working with, even started color coding things in my diary about whether they would raise my energy or lower my energy and making sure I had a good mix there. Maybe that's a topic for another time, but yeah, just kind of blocking the time out and getting really clear on goals. So with work, I think it's really important to know exactly how you're going to be measured and prioritizing on that and just saying no to a lot of other things and not feeling responsible for the people's disappointment about that. And even on a personal level, I set personal goals every month, arbitrarily I do it on the moon cycle. So it was a new moon this weekend and I kind of got my journal and wrote my personal goals and some of that's going to be work, some of that's going to be family, we're building a new house, some of it's that, education, I'm doing like a second degree. So every month I always kind of write out all my goals and try and get a mix of family and work and everything else. And then halfway through the month, I'll check my progress at the full moon. But that's, again, another topic. So I think that just being clear on your goals, clear on your boundaries and keeping your own score. Don't rely on anyone else. Don't worry if your parents aren't proud of you, as long as you do your best and you decide what's right for you and your family, because it puts a lot of pressure on your relationship or you've probably got different perspectives on how you want to do things. Maybe one of you is more strict, one of you is more lenient. But I think it's asking for what you want. And I think what I wanted to do was just hold space for other working parents, working fathers to speak to their managers and say, hey, I want more flexibility. There shouldn't be any shame in a man taking parental leave or wanting part-time hours or being at home and their partner is earning the money. So that surprises me. But I speak at certain events. A lot of men say, I haven't got the courage to do that. I wouldn't want to say that. Maybe I'm going to lose my career progression. I'd say to them, there's a limited time window when your kids are going to be small and you read them bedtime stories and spend time with them. For me, when my kids turned eight, they're like, we don't need bedtime stories anymore. And it's really hard to get their attention these days. So you've got this big career and this window when you can really be involved. And I think one of my regrets is not spending more time with my kids when they were small. And I probably was pretty hands-on and present. I think I probably could have spent more time with them. So I'd encourage any new parents, new dads, make the most of that time, because it'll be gone before you know it. And your career will still be there. That's good advice. I did want to ask you about if you could tell us a little bit more about the work you do with Men for Inclusion. So maybe you can tell us a little about what the organization does, the types of activities and types of membership, and just what its objectives are. Absolutely. So I started doing these male ally talks. And a lot of women said to me, it's not enough that you're a male ally. You need to get more men to be male allies. I was like, OK, thanks for that. So I created a LinkedIn group called Male Allies Network Man. And through this, a guy called Gary Ford, who's a former managing director at JPMorgan, contacted me saying, hey, we've been doing these male ally networks at JPMorgan. We're also linking with HSBC. Do you want to get together and start linking together male ally networks? So I said, yeah, sure. This is probably within the last six months. We realized that LinkedIn groups are a little bit ineffective. So we created a company on LinkedIn. And we brought in a few other people and women as well. So we're on our second event tomorrow. It's International Men's Day tomorrow, which some people might laugh at. But I think men's mental health and suicide rates mean that we do need to talk about men. We're having a red chair event tomorrow, which is about holding space for women in technology, particularly about sharing experiences. But we're still getting together. Our mission, we started out as male allies for gender equality. And I think a lot of us weren't really comfortable with that, just focusing on gender equality, especially these days. There's a much broader dimension of things to be inclusive about. So we changed the name to Men for Inclusion. And I really got behind it. I changed my role profile on LinkedIn. And everyone's like, wow, you've quit Amazon. I said, no, no, I'm still, Amazon still kind of helped me with my mortgage and still got satisfactory work there. But I'm doing this as well. And it's not a commercial venture. At this stage, we're still forming the goals. But the idea is just to talk to men. A lot of conversations around inclusion, men aren't there, either because they don't feel welcome or because they're not leaning in. So it's really, it's the men who are in the tent. That's who we're talking to, particularly white men and straight white men, but probably a broader demographic as well. Just to make a space for men to feel included and to talk about it and to give tips on advocacy or maybe they want to sign a pledge that they're going to appear on an all-male panel or an all-white panel. We're still figuring it out. It's quite exciting to be part of a group of people figuring that out. So watch this space on Men for Inclusion. It's a company on LinkedIn. You can follow it and see more about that. Maybe I'll leave you with one last question. And it's kind of prompted by the change in the name of the organization. How do you view the difference between equality and inclusion? It's a great question. And I think 25 years ago when I started out, it was very much about equality and equal opportunity. I think inclusion, underpinned by psychological safety, is a much bigger view about not excluding people on multiple dimensions. They may not be just the typical areas of sex and race and disability that are discriminated against. So it's about not excluding certain groups. It's much broader. I think there's a whole other topic about equity, about giving extra boost to typically marginalized groups of people. In the last minute, that could be a whole other TV show. I can imagine. I'm looking forward to continuing this conversation, hopefully. We've got maybe a minute and a half left. I'd love to make sure that anybody who's listening, where this conversation has resonated with them, they have the right way to reach you or the right way to reach the organizations that you've mentioned. So are there any ways to either reach you, reach Men for Inclusion, or any resources that you'd like to point us to? Absolutely. So I'm open to invitations on LinkedIn. That's probably the best place to find me. You can message me directly. Men for Inclusion is also on LinkedIn. My book, Confessions for a Working Father, is on Amazon. It's on Kindle. All the money I donate to a charity called Winston's Wish, which is for bereaved children after I lost my own mother as a child. So yeah, happy to connect there. Feel free to carry on the conversation. I look forward to hearing from people. That's great, Brian. Well, thank you very much for joining us at Cloudflare TV. As I mentioned to you a couple of days ago, this started as a way to talk a little bit about Cloudflare and our products and talk a little bit about what's going on with the company. We've had a fairly successful and pretty well -read blog, and we wanted to start another conversation with the people who engage with Cloudflare. And all of a sudden, this morphed into something much broader where we wanted to talk about issues of the workplace, issues of technology, issues of management. And I think it's great that we've had this opportunity to have this conversation. I've really enjoyed it. So for anybody who's watching out there, thank you very much for joining us today. Stay tuned. A lot more programming coming up on Cloudflare TV, and have a great day around the world. Thank you, Brian.