What's Next with Michelle Zatlyn, Co-founder, President & COO

Hi everyone and I'm Alina Ha from a strategic customer success team here in Le Bas in London and I wanted to thank you all.

Thank you so much for joining our last session of today, Women in Sales Day, and I'm really delighted to host this session together with our Cloudflare co -founder, president and CEO, Michelle Zatlyn.

Hi Alina, how are you? Good, how are you Michelle? Thank you so much for joining.

Oh thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here and and connecting with our audience today so really looking forward to the next 30 minutes together.

Cool, thank you so much. So before we dive in, here's a quick note for our viewers.

If you really want to ask questions to Michelle and myself, please submit them at livestudio at Cloudflare .tv.

Okay, Michelle, so I really wanted to ask you this question.

So when I was young, I was watching Santa Barbara and loved Cruz Castillo.

So who, for those who don't know him, he was this cool policeman in the brown bomber jacket and after that I really wanted to become a policewoman because I wanted to protect, you know, and help others and although I took a really different career path, I see the resemblance in my role now as a customer success manager because I help and advocate for my customers and I, when I was watching your recent interview with Stanford, you said you wanted to be a doctor.

And now here you are, a co-founder and president of a cybersecurity company and it made me think that so many times we change our initial career choices but we still end up, you know, working towards similar purpose and I wanted to ask you, like, do you feel that building a better Internet actually follows the spirit of doctors helping to, like, helping everyone no matter where they are from and who they are?

Yes. Well, I couldn't say it better, Alina. I found myself nodding my head because it's like, yes, yes, yes.

I just kind of want to keep saying yes all along. No, I do agree.

I think that I'm kind of 20 years into my career and I guess I have some reflections that I wish I had known in university or college and, you know, I did have a windy career path but actually that's an asset, not a liability.

Trying different things, collecting a lot of experiences, actually think that, you know, once you get through it to the other side, it makes you more well-rounded but some things stay constant and, you know, I think Adam Grant has a great book called Think Again and kind of some of your core beliefs and values, he describes, you know, you might want to rethink those more slowly than how you're doing something and I think that what you're describing is a little bit of that where there's some things that just resonate with each individual as individuals.

We all kind of are drawn to certain things or something gets us excited and that's what makes the world go around, that there's such a diversity of what that looks like and so when I think back to when I wanted to be a doctor, I really was drawn to it because I loved the idea of helping people and I also loved science.

Like, I was just such a science nerd.

I loved it. It made me very happy and so I thought, oh, well, if you love science, you like helping people, medicine was the place to go and it is.

It is one great option but what I didn't realize that I realize now is there are a lot of other options too and those weren't so obvious to me back when I was, you know, going to career services on campus and what I love about Kloffler and I get the same sort of reward and that's I worked at a lot of different companies where I didn't always feel like this is I feel like the work we do matters.

I feel like our customers are better off because our service exists.

They are thankful. They're grateful.

We do things for them that are hard for themselves and there's some element of medicine in that.

You go to the doctor because they are an expert of something that you are and you're like, please tell me what to do and when they do it really well, you feel so much better after the fact and so I think there's some elements.

Obviously, they're very different but there are some elements and I guess I'm glad I had that realization during my career that, oh, wow, there are lots of ways to help people and one thing that I do not think is well understood is the scale at which some of these companies operate at, including Kloffler, like the reach, the breadth, you know, the situations that you're faced when you're working on a day-to-day basis.

I feel like those are stories that haven't really been told or well understood but it's really rewarding and so I guess I couldn't agree more.

I agree. I think the gratitudes we get from, you know, helping customers when they and it's not only under attack, right, like this can be really, really small but, you know, like you're taking such a big, you know, weight off their shoulders is definitely something I find I love about my work and you mentioned that, you know, like you have so much experience but let's move, kind of go back a little bit to your beginning and I think today's sessions is, because it's the last session and Women's and Sales Day, I think this is a logical ending for this event because you were at the origins of Kloffler sales and you were not only the co-founder, you at some point, I assume, you were the sales, you know, enablement, you were the business development, you were the marketing person and thinking back, like what do you, what was your experience being a woman in this role in this industry 10 years ago?

That's a big question Alina and there's so many different ways.

I mean, there's lots of different ways to answer that and, you know, if there are founders or people who want to start companies who are listening, I guess the point that I would make based on this kind of topic is, yeah, you end up doing things that you may be qualified for or may be unqualified for because inherently, when you're building a company, everything has to get built so there's just way more things to do than people to do it so everybody gets stretched out of their, kind of, what their core competencies and you're always chipping in doing other sorts of things and so there's lots of great articles out there talking about how, if you're a founder, how you end up doing sales first before you hire people because it's hard to hire somebody to do something if you don't understand what you're trying to hire them for and that's, like, at the core of it and so, yes, so there is a piece of that and I think the mistake that sometimes, I think, people make early is they hire somebody for a job they don't really fully understand, they get it wrong so that's mistake one that I've seen but mistake two is equally bad, maybe worse, is they actually, and they do do it, they actually end up being pretty good at it because they care so much and, you know, they're just so passionate about what the company is doing, what they're building, that they actually never end up hiring professional sales executives or BDRs or customer success managers to give away that lego and that's, I think, a bigger mistake where it's, you know, it doesn't, you could be the best salesperson but you need a team because that's how you scale an organization and so that's, kind of, from my founder's hat.

I think that there's also, kind of, early in your career hat which is what you were alluding to and then being a woman and working in sales and with customers and I do think that it's one of our board members, Scott Sandel, he's been on our board for a long time, he spent two years doing sales, not at Klaffler but early in his career and he, to this day, he's a very successful investor, he's like, that was so formative for me, like, just being close to the customer and understanding they're busy, how do you get their attention and they move on their timelines, not my timelines and that was, like, kind of a wide eye -opening experience for him and so I think this idea of even if you don't want to be, make a career out of it, taking one of the chapters of your career and working within a sales organization close to customers will serve you well, whether you become a product manager, whether you become a venture capitalist, whether you become, go into the people function, wherever you end up going, into finance, it's just understanding that is almost like it's a great tour of duty, it's a great experience that you can collect even if you don't want to do it full-time for the next 40 years of your career, so I think that's interesting.

I think that being a woman, you know, a little, I think that that's a hard question for me to answer because I was also the founder, so I had some extra leeway as starting Klaffler of, oh, wow, I, you know, I think everything you read online is true, plus more where sometimes it's harder, you got to work hard, you got to be more prepared, I mean, I think all those exist because there's some element of truth in all of that.

Having said that, I will say, and I'm a very optimistic half-class full person, even when that was the case, I often felt like I got fast reward cycles of, oh, wow, that was really, I wasn't really, I didn't really expect much from this meeting, but that actually was really a good use of my time, look forward to the next one, and so having kind of those little bit quick feedback loops of like, wow, that preparation worked, and I felt like people were like, well, actually, you have something really interesting to say, we are interested, let's set up another conversation.

To me, I guess that was a good, that was a good feedback loop of, okay, the hard work paid off, and then now, fast forward to today, you know, when you are part of a successful company, you get some, there's a little bit less of having to convince people that you've earned a seat, they kind of assume, okay, well, you're clearly doing something right, so that makes that a little bit easier, but early on, yes, of course, and I had to work harder and prepare more, but I did feel like I got fast feedback cycles that it was worth it, and then that kind of reinforces that it was worth doing, and then you get more confidence, and then, you know, it just is a positive cycle going forward.

Okay, I have like a question for, you know, your growth as a female leader, but it will be later, but I think now I want to ask you, like, you were talking about, you know, like all these Internet articles are true, you know, like, and back in the days, like 10 years ago, it was a little bit more, like, it was a little bit harder, and now, like, we see that, you know, development of many companies and industry in general increasingly towards the more diverse workforce, right, and can you, like, from your personal experience, even though you were a co-founder, and there was some, a little bit of leeway, but do you see this, what the evolution in the industry was in this 10 years, and what hasn't changed, but you wish has, you know, you wish they had changed?

So, I think that there's the good, where there are lots of great companies and places to work with great jobs, where, whether you're a man or a woman or a person of color, you get treated who you are, and, and judged on your merit, and, like, that's great, and I love those stories, and there, there are many of those stories, like, many.

Having said that, it's not universal. There's still a lot of people who don't think having a diverse team is better, even though all the research shows this, that it's a better place to work and drives better business results.

There's some companies where this just isn't a priority, and there's others where they say it is, but when you actually show up, it feels like it's not.

So, so, I guess, since it's a careers day, and there's a lot of job seekers listening, I think what, so, so, I believe that it's, not every company is different.

You should come to events like this. You should, when you're interviewing, you should try and get to know what's it really like, because you should be purposeful in your career choice, again, as a job seeker, but then, what I always say, and I try and tell people this all the time when we are, you know, interviewing candidates is, you know, we want people to come to Cloudflare and stay for a long time.

We want you to feel like you're, you belong, and you're empowered to do great work, and you should be purposeful in what you're choosing to do, and, and so, I think that, like, if you are thinking about your role, you should be purposeful of the type of company.

Go to a place where they actually really value this, and, you know, I think Cloudflare is one of those companies.

There are many others, but there's also many others that I wouldn't, I would say that's not the case, and so, choose, choose with your talent.

You know, it's almost like, choose with your wallet, like, when you're buying from brands online, or I think, like, buy, spend money with a company that you actually want to see succeed, or the founders, or whoever, or the creator, or whatever it is that you're, that you think is doing a good job.

Same with your talent. Go get a job at a company where you actually think that they're doing this right, and help, you know, help show the world that's possible, and make it harder for the companies who aren't prioritizing it, is what, is what I would say.

So, vote with your talent, and really be discerning, and then, once you're there, do great work, and, and, and set yourself up for success, and the company up for success, and I think good things will really happen.

From personal feedback, you know, as a woman of color, as an immigrant, as a woman, like, and this is something I discussed with some of my colleagues recently, I think Cloudflare became this safe harbor for us, like, you know, we have something to, you know, like, compare to, and it's not something you, like, I'm trying to sell it, but it's truly my personal experience, that I, just like you say, like, I do feel that we did get to the point where I feel valued, you know, like, and I think, I wish everyone had the same experience, you know, like, when they go to work somewhere, because we spend so much time at work, so, like, you have to have this safety, right, like, and a feeling of value as well.

Yes, yeah, exactly, and if you don't, then look for another job, like, go vote with your talent, and I, I, you know, some people say, oh, that's so easy to say, and it is, but if you are involved in technology, you can get another job, I mean, everybody's hiring, everybody's looking for great people, and so, I do think, you know, I might not be the same for every sort of type of job, but if you are a working professional, working in the technology industry, you do, can switch roles and companies, and so, then it becomes on you to take, do the work, to kind of look at what else is out there, because I, I, you shouldn't put up with it, exactly as you said, vote with your talent.

Definitely, and actually, my next question is coming back to, you know, believing in yourself, and so, recently, I saw this TikTok video, which I watched on Instagram, but where the message was to women, let others say no to you, so the meaning is that stop saying no to yourself before even trying, and it hit me so deep, because it's so true, like, we, as women, like, in many cases, majority of the cases, like, we doubt ourselves the most, we're the most, the worst critics for ourselves, and we lose a lot of interesting, amazing opportunities, just because we, before we try, we say, like, oh, no, no, like, they're going to say no to me, and the question to you, Michelle, have you ever said no to yourself, and therefore, missed something interesting or exciting?

Yes, yes, I have said no to myself, and I'm smiling, because I, I mean, just recently, I mean, in very recent, the last few weeks, you know, I had someone I really admire, called her, was talking to her about this opportunity that was in front of me, and, and her exact words to me, you know, were, like, Michelle, stop it, you don't need one more qualification to earn this, this opportunity, like, you are enough of who you are, like, you are, you are, you are enough, just as you are, and, you know, it was, I, I kind of went away, and that conversation resonated in my mind for many nights, and thinking about it, and I just thought, wow, I'm so lucky that someone cared enough to say that to me, you know, and, and, you know, I had someone else, you know, there's these mantras you see on Instagram, or TikTok, and you kind of, at first, you, you, you see them, you roll your eyes, you think these are silly, but then you're kind of, like, you're having a conversation with someone like that, and you're, like, actually, these mantras are something to them, you know, people writing on their, on their mirrors, I am enough, on sticky notes, and stuff, and, and, and again, that's, that's not my, I think that there are life, life is this collection of experiences, and there's always something that seems like someone has it more put together, or more successful than you are, and on one side, that's good, because it makes you push yourself, and you rise to the occasion, if you're a little bit competitive, you're like, wow, I want to do better than what I'm doing, I want, I want this, and, and it makes you hungry for more, so that's, like, the good side of it, the bad side is when you start to compare yourself, and you think, oh, I'm not as good, or, oh, they're further along, like, that's the bad side of it, and this doubting piece, and so I think the, the sweet spot is, if you can push yourself, right, because that's how you grow, right, and I was, I, I, I have a Cloudflare TV segment called Yes, We Can, where I happen to introduce really interesting people, all related to technology, that all happen to be women, and there's this woman yesterday, Lorraine Lee, who is terrific, and we were talking about how, when you put yourself into these uncomfortable situations, you expand yourself, you almost, like, you, it's like, you puff up, because you're, like, stretched so much, and you think, oh, my God, am I going to burst, what's going to happen, and even if it doesn't go perfectly, what happens when you put yourself in these stretch situations, these growth opportunities, you never quite go back to the same shape or size again, and all of a sudden, you got confident, and next time, you do it better, and, and all of a sudden, it's, and you look back two years later, five years later, ten years later, you're like, wow, I'm a much better public speaker, I can handle challenges much better, my stress level stays much more cool in an emergency, because I've just dealt with it a lot better, I have a better language, and framework, and confidence about how to deal with it, and all of a sudden, you're like, actually, I've really grown as a person, and as leader, and I'm making huge impact, and you get to the other side, and so, the answer is yes, I definitely say no to myself many times throughout the, through your life, and one thing that I've learned about myself, and you know, again, this is, I think, good, some of these self -realization is, I always regret the things I don't do, much more than regretting the things that I do do, and so, and sometimes, that leads to me biting off more than I can chew, and I just kind of say yes to a lot of things, and all of a sudden, I'm like juggling a lot of balls, and that's got its own set of stressful situations, but the things that if I lament, the things that I, that I still kind of bother me today, it's the things that I chose not to do, and I found reasons why I shouldn't be doing it, and you know, it's too expensive, or too risky, or wasn't ready yet, and what if I don't do a good job, and so, I've kind of learned that about myself, and so now, when I'm making a choice, or making a decision, I like, I know that about myself, and I try to be aware, and so, these are the sorts of things where back to like, life is a collection of experiences, try things, and you know, when you say it doesn't work out, it's fine, failure actually is a learning opportunity, it's, it's one of these places where you've still expanded yourself, and now you can talk about, it's like, how do you make something, if it doesn't work out, how do you make that a win?

Hey, I did this, it didn't work out, here's what I learned, and that's why I'm excited to try it again, all of a sudden, everyone's like, oh wow, versus, oh I did, it didn't work out, you know, the former is better than the latter, like you know, and this is what I learned, here's what I'm going to do, you know, that's what I'm excited to do next time, and I have, so this is one of those things where, yes, it's totally normal, and I don't even think it's women, I think it's men too, I think that, you know, I, it's both men and women who, who have this conversation with their head, in their heads with each other, I think it's good that we talk a lot more about it today, I even see it in our Cloudflare chat rooms, it comes up, like imposter syndrome, and it gets brought up, you know, in interviews on Cloudflare TV, get, there's a lot of articles written about it, so it's much more known, people have named it now, and so now that I think it's named, it's like, okay, it's more recognizing what is happening, and what are you going to do about it, is probably, I'm a very practical, let's, let, let, let's do it sort of person, and so it's like, what are you going to do about it when you're faced with it, and, and that's that.

The last thing I will say on this, which I haven't brought up, which I think is really important, never gets talked about, making these choices are hard, it's not clear always what you should do, and the problem is, you can't outsource the decision making to somebody else, and so back to this person I was talking to a few weeks ago, it was, it was a hard decision that I was faced with, and I was calling a lot of people to get input on it, and everyone had a different point of view, and I was frustrated, because I was like, it's just not obvious what I should do, and my husband, who, you know, knows me really well, we've been together for a long time, said to me, Michelle, someone's not going to make the decision for you, you have to make the decision, and I think that, you know, as soon as I recognize that, it's like true, so then it's like, okay, it actually doesn't matter whatever else thinks, I got to decide, I'm the one who has to live with it, I'm the one who's going to either, I don't want to lament it a year from now, whether I did or didn't do it, like, you know, those are some of the ways that I did it, but I think that doesn't get said enough, that these things are complicated, it's not clear, don't outsource it to somebody else, don't outsource it to your boss, don't outsource it to your, your parents, or your sister, or your brother, like you choose, and sometimes people won't understand, because they don't have all the information, and I think as soon as I recognize that, that it's like my choice, it actually almost made it easier, because I wasn't trying to please others.

Wow, this is so many yeses, and I agree with you so much, and one thing I wanted to tell you, like, similar about, you know, public speaking, I used to think that I'm terrible at it, like, I actually had, like, I'm in Kaufler for a year and a half now, and like six months in, I actually told my manager back then, Blake, I was like, I'm really scared to speak up in, you know, bigger meetings, and, and kind of, he said, like, come on, like, why, you know your stuff, like, you know yourself, like, why you don't yourself, like, just do it, and I'm really grateful to this advice, because, like, here I am now, you know, speaking to you, like, and I've been, I've done so many Kaufler TV segments, and it's very, like, you think about yourself, like, I've never thought I would do that, like, and just, this is the limit, right, in your head, that you just need to, like, switch off, and just do it.

The, to the point, like, about, you know, like, fear of failure, like, when you just finish Stanford, you actually reject the job from LinkedIn, and when you rejected it, they said, this is the biggest mistake in your career, and he also said that, while this is the very exciting journey, it was, and still is, very scary and difficult, and it is normal for us to feel anxious, you know, about decisions, you know, feel, you know, fear of failure, and have fear of failure.

How do you help yourself to overcome this anxiety, how, and overcome this fear of failure?

Yeah, it's, it's a good question, and so, it was, it was after Harvard, not Stanford, grade school, too, but just, for any fact checkers out there, to set the record straight there, I, yeah, yes, yeah, you know, it's hard, so it's, you know, I tell that story, just because, a little bit of, tied to what I was saying before, is you can't try and please everyone, and really, you are in charge of your own life, and, and I think that, sometimes, like, in school, like, when I went to school, you know, you're, you're getting graded, and so, it's all about, like, how you're doing on the grades, and the tests, and I, like, was really set up with getting good grades, and just was, like, I was really always trying to do that, and so, when I got to my working career, it was so different, because it wasn't about getting a grade on a test.

In fact, in many ways, getting a grade on a test is so much easier than, and then having to decide, should I go take this great job offer at LinkedIn, or should I walk away from it, and go and start a company that, by the way, every book says, 95 percent of the time will fail.

You're just like, why would I, you know, what, what, what, and, and feeling like you're, don't know anybody, and who, who, who do I think I am that I should really go and try and start a company, and why me, and, you know, so many other people trying it, like, why would I be any better at this, or worse, like, you know, you just don't know, and so, I, I tell this story because of this exact thing of, you know, you get to choose, and what's an example where, you know, I asked a lot of people, but no one really knew, and, you know, I had, I have, I'm really close to my family, my siblings had a point of view, they were super supportive, but like, you gotta choose, there was no, you know, boss to go talk to, like, I just really was like, okay, I gotta make this decision, you have some advisors, maybe some professors, but even then, like, I often tell people, you ask 10 smart people, you will get seven different answers, and I think that there's lots of ways to be successful in life, and so, it's back to, like, it's your choice, you have to decide, and so, for me, and everyone is different on this, like, this is where there's, like, a lot of difference in personalities, and I think what your past experiences have shaped you, but the way that I was able to get comfortable with, you know, in this case, where, you know, I had a really great job, that had a salary, with somebody who had worked there for a long time, was doing very well, on this rocket ship of a company, or no salary, move myself out to the valley, like, and show up with nobody, and kind of an idea, like, that was a little bit of my choice, what I, what the way that, in this case, how I got comfortable, and again, I think is every, is the worst case scenario, what is the worst case scenario here, and as soon as I can get comfortable with, okay, if it doesn't work out, here's what would happen, then that helps me, I think, make some of these, what seem like more risky choices on the surface, and in this case, my worst case scenario was, okay, I was dating somebody who was my boyfriend, then he is now my husband, but back then, we were dating, we're doing long distance, he lived in Vancouver, I was living in Boston, going to Harvard, about to move to California, and I was like, okay, well, if this really doesn't work out with Cloudflare, I guess, I'll, you know, I'll have to just move back, I'll just have to move in with Jamie, my boyfriend, okay, well, that seemed fine, I'll get a job in Vancouver, was kind of my backup, okay, what if we break up, like, I literally went through this, like, if we break up, okay, I'll have no money, like, literally, I had no money, I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm gonna move in with my parents, I'm from Saskatchewan, my parents live in Saskatchewan, I was like, I haven't lived there since I was 18, I was like, all right, I guess I'll be moving back into my parents' house in Saskatchewan, not my first choice, thinking about graduating from Harvard Business School, my worst case scenario is I might have to move into my parents' basement in Saskatchewan, but I was like, I think I could get a job from there, and I think I'm employable, and I think, I think, I think, or maybe they'd lend me some money, I'd go live in Toronto and try and get a new job, and so I kind of was able to get comfortable, and I was like, and I remember people saying, Michelle, you have a Harvard Business School degree, you're gonna be just fine, you're highly employable, but you just kind of back to, I've looked for jobs, it can be hard, it's not always easy, and I might, I always, when people say that to me, I'm like, well, you've probably never actually had to look for a job, it's not as easy as it sounds, but anyhow, the, the point is, is that's how I got comfortable with that choice early in my career, where it was, what was the worst?

Now, I know lots of other people who would never, ever even think about that, I'm just gonna be successful, I would never fail, so it doesn't matter what failure looks like, people deal with these very differently, so you just kind of find what works for you, you don't have to explain it to anyone, you choose, and then you go make the best, try to make the most successful event out of it, and so that's, that's, I think, what the lesson is there.

Okay, I have, we have two minutes left, but I have really quick questions, just during my one -to-one with Nelo Collins, who is our Director of Customer Success in EMEA, I asked her questions, how is it to be a female leader?

And what was really cool and kind of a revelation to me, Nelo was like, I don't see myself as a female leader, I try to see myself as a leader, and it is so simple, but you know, like, it was such a cool thing for me to, and realized to myself, that we put so many, like, ourselves in so many different boxes, right, and we say, okay, I am based on that, and do you think that while we need to move forward to more diverse workspace, we still, like, as women, we need to stop seeing ourselves as just a female business development person, female customer success?

Well, I agree with Nelo, like, she's a leader, she's an incredible leader, we're so lucky to have her at Cloudflare, and the team she's built, and the customer base we've built, so absolutely, and I have a similar sentiment, I will say that my, this is something that actually I've, so yes, but, I guess this is the answer, I think, you know, again, I am the President and Chief Operating Officer of Cloudflare, absolutely, like, bar none, I am an Executive Director of a publicly traded company in the New York Stock Exchange, I'm a founder, like, those are all true, the, the, I will also say, though, that back to my point of not everyone acknowledges that it's not equal for women at every company, not everyone acknowledges that they treat them the same, and so, while I think that, you know, the, I am a leader, I am a VDR, I am a customer success, and I'm the best that I can be of that, and I love it, is the grade, I think that there's also an acknowledgment of we have a lot of work to do, and so being willing to talk about it when you get asked to speak, show up and do it, when you, you know, trying to show people that you like what you're doing, if you do, like, so it encourages other people to follow and become mentors, and it's like, people do what they see, if they don't see any women ahead of them, they're not going to join, or to go take that career path, I think is also really important, so we shouldn't shy away that we're women, and that there are fewer women than men in technology, there just are, but I'm very optimistic for the future, because of what you just said, and what Nelo just said, and so, so yes, but, and so I think absolutely, and I think being willing to have this conversation and engage in it is also important, because I used to kind of poo-poo, I'd be like, oh, I just want to be Michelle, known as a founder, and I realize it is harder for a lot of other women, it's not equal at every company, and so we also have a lot of work to do, and so I guess I'm, I want to help rise all tides everywhere.

Well, I think we have extra five minutes, and we have a, we have a question from the audience, and hi Michelle, you talk about making mistakes to encourage a more growth mindset, personally, but does Cloudflare also encourages this?

Thank you. Yeah, no, thanks for the question, and thanks so much for coming today, you know, I was talking about somebody with this, somebody yesterday, I think yes, I mean, again, I, it's hard for me not to sound biased, I mean, literally, I started the company, we're not perfect, we're not a perfect company, we make mistakes, but I think in this case, we do a really good job around, around when somebody makes a mistake, like, we don't fire people for things like that, in fact, and it's not, they don't get singled out, it's not like they get a big fat red X next to their name, or an F, like back to my school grading, it's, it's not like that, I think that there's, there's a lot of, okay, first of all, what, what's the situation, what are we going to do about it, is kind of in the immediate, and then bigger picture, zooming out, okay, how do we fix the process, or the system, so we're not in this situation again, is really common, and you know, I have lots of examples, some that are very public, of, you know, people, myself included, making a mistake, and you feel embarrassed when you make mistakes, you care so much, and everyone cares, or working so hard, but then people being like, oh my God, I'm going to jump in and help fix it, and we fix it together, and then it's, okay, now what are we going to do to help fix the whole process, or the system, and it's not because I made a mistake, it's because we don't have the right process, or the systems, or the checks and balances in place, how do you make it better, so we can make this repeatable, and make sure it doesn't happen again in the future, that is when Cloudflare is at our best, and I see that all the time, which is, which is really, really helpful, and healthy, and so I love that, and we're just so used to it at this point, and you know, I'll just give you one really clear example, you know, we run this global network, and sometimes when we make a mistake, we have a lot of postmortems on our blogs, and today that's very accepted, but we were doing that eight years ago, people were like, what are you doing, why are you publicly acknowledging all these sorts of things, we're like, because we made a mistake, here's what we're doing about it, and here's what we're, here's what we did about it, here's why it happened, here's what we're doing about it, so it doesn't happen again, and actually over time, that accrued a lot of trust, and so I think that's an experience as an employee at Cloudflare, and you know, even in your career path at Cloudflare, you know, we allow people to say, hey, I want to become a people manager, and they can raise their hand, and over time, you know, run a team, or there's other people who want to try different, you know, maybe they're on customer success, and they want to go try being a product manager, and we kind of have this idea, or maybe they just want to become deeper within a customer success, or sales, they just want to say, I love what I'm doing, I want to become a more seasoned individual contributor, we kind of have these three different career paths at Cloudflare, we also have this notion of, there's a lot of people who thought they wanted to be a people manager, and so they went to do it, and then they were like, I actually don't like this, and maybe they weren't very good at it either, and it's like, no problem, let's kind of get like a get out of jail free card, great, let's go back to what you do want to do next, and what's different, and like try and go feel in a place where you feel like you're doing really great work, and we have a lot of examples of people doing that, so the answer is yes, that's a long answer with some examples of where it shows up, and if not at Cloudflare, find a manager and a team that accepts that, because I think again, if everyone expects to know all the answers, that's kind of unrealistic.

Yeah, I agree, and as a person who works in Cloudflare, I do, you know, I can confirm that it's not even possible not to make mistakes, right, like it's just part of your job, and you need to have compassion for yourself, like because it's a place of growth, but I think what I agree with you, like this is another cultural thing we have, like you've made a mistake, you go to your manager, so like I screwed up, like how can we fix it, so and then we do a lot of enablement for the team, so I've done this mistake, you don't repeat it, this is a process for doing it differently, right, but Michelle, thank you so much for this conversation, and it was, I think like as everyone else and myself included, like it was very insightful, thank you for your honesty, and I'm really sure everyone enjoyed it as much as I did, and I want to encourage everyone to go to Cloudflare careers page, we have a lot of openings, and so please if you have any questions, reach out to myself and others through LinkedIn, if you have any questions about Cloudflare or how to work here, and yeah, thank you so much for, you know, today's session.

Thank you so much, Alina, and for someone who doesn't like public speaking, you did an amazing job, so you have a career as a future broadcaster, this was wonderful, so thanks everyone, yeah, definitely check out Cloudflare.com backslash careers, and you can reach out to Alina or myself on LinkedIn or Twitter, and we'd love to talk to you about what it's like to work at Cloudflare, and see if there's a role for you in our team, so thank you so much.

Thank you, bye.